Twins waiting for Young’s free-swinging style to click
Posted on April 28th, 2008 – 11:03 AMBy Joe Christensen
In case you missed this, ESPN.com’s Jayson Stark weighed in last week on Delmon Young’s swing-happy start with the Twins:
• The Young and the Take-Less Dept.: Speaking of which, it’s no CIA secret that Delmon Young likes to takes his hacks. According to Bill James Online, in fact, he already has chased 50 pitches outside the strike zone this season — way more than Albert Pujols (19) and Chipper Jones (18) combined.
But Young’s new manager in Minnesota, Ron Gardenhire, told Rumblings this spring that the Twins made a conscious decision not to overemphasize plate discipline as they let Young evolve as a hitter.
“I watched Torii Hunter for like 10 years,” Gardenhire said. “You think Torii hasn’t swung? You know what? There’s nothing wrong with swinging. That’s why they give you a bat. This kid’s 22 years old. He’s got everything ahead of him. So let it fly. Learn as you go. He’ll learn the strike zone.
“To start telling a guy to just ‘take, take, take,’ sometimes that’s just not human nature. You don’t get to the big leagues, and you don’t become a big league player, by ‘take, take, take’ and get walks. Some people are paid to drive in runs. You think David Ortiz goes up there to walk? He’s paid to drive in runs. He walks because we walk him. On purpose. And that’s what’s going to happen to Delmon as he goes along, too. Right now, they know he’s going to chase a little bit, but that’s OK. I’ll take my chances with him letting it fly.”
I don’t have the subscription to BillJamesOnline.com, for the updated stat on out-of-strike zone swings. Young went 8-for-25 on the Twins’ six-game road trip, leaving him at .257/.287/.309 with no home runs and eight RBI.
142 Responses to "Twins waiting for Young’s free-swinging style to click"
vavra’s fault, no doubt. global warming? vavra. price of gas? vavra. etc., etc.
Twins have 7 players with 20 or more at bats with on-base percentages below .300
That is incredibly terrible.
Hey,
I’m thinking Gomez has more bunt singles than regular hits. Anyone know if that’s the case or not? Thanks.
I work in the grocery biz…. I see all of these price increases and it is clear to me the problem…. Vavra.
seriously though, the hitting does need to get better though or maybe the twins should look elsewhere.
Go to ESPN.com and you will see that of those who qualify Young is 2nd on the team in most p/pa, and does not have the lowest rate on the team. What should be most disturbing is that it looks like he has been affected by the Twins philosophy of pushing everything to the right side.
And how many balls has this guy fouled straight back. I mean between he and Mauer it looks like they always just miss there pitch.
Young will turn it around.
Patience vs. Agression…very tight rope. People argue Mauer takes too much, and that Young doesn’t take enough.
Where’s the happy median? How does one find the happy median?
I think the Twins overall problem is getting when to take and when to swing mixed up.
Young being a free-swinger isn’t so much a problem right now. I’m more conerned that he (lke Gomez) learn to better spot different types of pitches.
So maybe they don’t chase that ball off the plate.
Mauer and Young have that beat the ball into the dirt mentality. No power. also on a side note I loved watching Reyes and Guardado pitch against each other. While I was half awake during the battle it brought me back to the day’s of the Dodgers and Fernando Valenzuela
The Twins really do need to take more walks and learn not to always swing at the first pitch. That is a problem for the entire team, except for maybe Mauer and Morneau. However I am not too worried about Delmon Young over the long term. He reminds me a lot of another Twins outfielder with 5 tool potential: Kirby Puckett. Like Young, Puckett used to swing at everything. It seemed to work okay for him.
The only problem with this is do we have to wait as long for Young to develop as we did Torri? Kirby was also a free swinger but i seriously doubt Young has the same type of eye.
Lots of angst over Mauer’s take-every-nice-strike approach and make the pitcher work and equally as much angst over DY and Gomez approaches to swing at everything coming up there. Here is a couple of interesting stats that show the philosophy I prefer… be ready to hit the first good strike, it might be the best one you see.
Gomez: Count 0-0
AB H 2B 3B HR RBI AVG OBP SLG OPS
13 7 1 0 0 3 .538 .538 .615 1.154
Mauer: Count 0-0
6 3 1 0 0 2 .500 .429 .667 1.095
Not a large enough sample size, but isn’t it telling to see that Mauer has put just 6 first pitch balls into play?
In the interest of fairness in reporting, I need to point out that DY is hitting .200 on first pitch balls in play (out of 15 times). DY is best at 2-1 and 3-1 counts. So, patience for him would be helpful.
For Joe and Carolos, the results are great at 0-0. I say hack away… (on the first straight pitch). Let’s go.
correction… for DY, 1-2 not the 2-1 count; his best hitting is at 1-2 (20 times hitting .350; go figure) and at 3-1 (9 times hitting .444).
So, pull for DY to get to 3-1 or 1-2 and watch his success. (Just stay away from that 1-3 count). lol
DY needs to bring some power to the plate. We have only 3 players with home runs so far and I have only seen DY get close once. Swing at the first pitch if you want, don’t swing if you don’t want to, but when you do swing get it out of the park.
The Twins hitting approach is as if they were hitting against the Twins starters every at bat….
Gardy: “Look guys, they’re going to look to get ahead and throw a lot of first and second pitch strikes. We need you to go out and get your hacks in.”
The Twins probably emphasize avoiding the pitching walk as much as any organization and yet practice the anti-thesis when they approach hitting. It’s a complete conundrum. They have much higher standards when it comes to pitching and the art and strategy of pitching then they do the art of hitting and strategy. It’s almost mind boggling.
It’s like they read MoneyBall and said, Beane’s approach is a crock. However, we’ll buy into his market pressures point and try to pick free swingers, because they will be undervalued because of Beane’s OBP mantra… We so have the market cornered!
3 with home runs???
Morneau
Monroe
Cuddyer
Kubel
Harris
Gardy trying to develop a hitting philosophy is an area he should skip. The guy had a .277 OBP in his 5 years in the bigs.
Sorry, 5 with homeruns. Monroe’s and Harris’ escaped me.
IMO the way to become a better hitter is not to fall into any tendancies at the plate like swinging or not swinging at the first pitch. It’s not that all pitchers can locate every pitch but at the major league level most of them can and if you have a tendancy to swing at certain pitches in certain counts they will pick up on this in a hurry.
I think it is ironic that MauerGirl is calling for more HRs and the 6′5″/6′6″ catcher hasn’t come close. Oh well.
Actually, I can accept Joe’s power limitations given his superior defensive skills and his high BA.
Just thought it ironic coming from the Mauer fan club. lol
No power Mauer. I think our leadoff hitter has more HR’s then Mauer and Young aka Torii’s batting #’s replacement lololololololo
I never said that Mauer was performing well at the plate. I was simply stating that Young, a supposed big bat hasn’t hit one out yet. That is all. Glad I gave you a laugh….
Forgot Gomez…that’s HRs from six guys….
Get Ullger to address the team and tell them to “start swinging like men”…like he scolded Resto after big Mike was called up and hitting over .300
Nothing wrong with the Twins offense that playing Punto full time won’t fix. Best player on the team! Should be leading off he’ll get things going the right way.
“Oh no, a report just came in”. Mauer will be out for least 2 weeks with what Doctors can’t diagnose is what the injury is. They need to do a cat scan and come up with something to put on the medical chart but for now they are just going from Mauer’s word.
BC
I’m glad you said Puckett had a good eye, and not eyes. Sorry I couldn’t resist.
I’ve noticed Young doesn’t hit with the same part of the bat every time. Instead, he habitually twists his bat in his hands before the pitch. To me that means that during some at bats he is not hitting with the hardest part of the bat (batting against the grain). I’m not a physics expert, but wouldn’t a batter be more affective if they always batted with the grain?
for young to hit more hr’s he must use more of an upppercut swing and that is not what Vavra is teaching. He is realy wanting the beat the ball into the dirt approach
jama
The sad part about that is he still hit better with the one good eye than anyone on this roster.
Gardy Gardy Gardy…..you can’t let a guy be a free and wild swinger and expect to get HR’s out of the deal. That’s BS. You have to teach the young hitter to not continually chase the low outside slider, for instance, so you get good pitches for power results.
romer an uppercut swing must also be applied for power results
“The Twins probably emphasize avoiding the pitching walk as much as any organization and yet practice the anti-thesis when they approach hitting. It’s a complete conundrum.”
Excellent, MC.
And that’s why the whole “Fire Vavra” mantra isn’t going to solve anything.
Sure, they get rid of Vavra…then who do they bring in? They’ll bring in somebody who in their eyes was a good hitter and will be able to teach a style of hitting they like.
The problem isn’t the specific person, it’s the mentality of the Twins FO/management as a whole.
They need to recognize the problem in the mentality before they go out and try to find a new guy to teach how to hit. Otherwise they’ll just replace Joe Vavra with Joe Vavra.
SMALL MARKET = SMALL BALL
Just a random though…would moving Young 3rd improve the pitches he sees? Right now they pitch around Morneau so they can throw junk at Young and watch him swing.
If they put him ahead of Morneau, would pitchers be more concerned about junk pitches? With Mauer 2nd you hope he’s on base…which means a walk puts 2 on for Morneau, which nobody wants to see.
Mike Lamb had a pretty good weekend upping his batting avg and looked a little more respectable. With Lamb though if I was a pitcher low and away with that goofy batting stance.
Has anyone ever seen Joe Mauer pull the ball with authority to right field? Ok, I exagerate a little, but why(other than Vavra) can’t a .300, batting champ, pro hitter ever pull the ball to right field other than to ground out into doubleplays?
Mauer is definitely a good fit for #2 hitter behind Gomez. He takes so many pitches that Gomez will get a chance to steal. Gomez had ONE successful steal on Friday night while he tried SEVEN times (the others were foul balls…) That as much as anything took a toll on Carlos’ legs. Joe will give Carlos a chance to get on 2nd base with just one steal attempt.
I would hit DY 3rd and Cuddy 5… followed by Kubel, Lamb, Harris, and Tolbert.
i agree with t it’s an organizational problem which hasn’t produced any good hitters for years. to fire vavra may not solve anything, however, it might set a new direction that could solve things. imo the status quo isn’t working. waiting till the end of the year if no improvement is the easy way out, putting it off is easy making a change now so whatever changes are going to happen will have the rest of the year to work. you wait it’s start from scratch in the spring and it takes half next year to get things going.
The point everyone seems to be missing about not just swinging away is not so much whether you let good pitches go by but rather the fact that even getting to a point of not swing at BAD pitches; that is only swinging at STRIKES there is also the clear fact that not all “strikes” are created equal! That is, if you listen to a good hitter describe his approach at the plate what they are really looking for ain’t necessarily STRIKES but rather THEIR pitches. That is, a pitch they can do something with, like drive. Conversely if a hitter, like Young, swings at nearly ANYTHING there is virtaully NO incentive for the pitcher to even try and come near a strike, much less a pitch he’ll be able to drive. The beauty of seeing a Mauer or a Morneau go the other way with a pitch is that in most cases you know they got a pitch the pitcher even MEANT to throw but they went with for a hit. Most ML hitters can hit a pitcher’s MISTAKES; it’s the top drawer hitters who can even hit a pitcher’s good pitches. Until Young (or Gomez) show patience there is no reason in the world for a pitcher to throw a strike…I wouldn’t!
Team Mendoza.
Mauer and Morneau are good hitters. Cuddyer is a pretty good hitter, as well. The Twins are getting an amazingly small contribution from several (3) positions and underacheivement from at least three more. Small contributions–LF, SS, CF. Underacheivement–RF, 3B, and C.
Almost sounds like those two should have an AB where they are instructed not to move the bat until told to by Gardy.
Maybe that’s not a bad idea. 
That was addressed at Nealcp BTW.
Gardy: “Learn as you go. He’ll learn the strike zone.”
And the coaches are supposed to guide him in this learning process, cause he ain’t learning it on his own.
And this could be all well and good (which Gardy apparently thinks it is), but he’s not hitting any home runs!!! So, as long as he’s swinging at bad pitches, he won’t get a good number of strikes thrown to him and he won’t hit home runs.
I would think that having played baseball since he was a kid he would have a pretty good idea of where the strike zone is so i guess he just has to learn where every umpires strike zone is now. So by 2010 he should have a good idea i hope.
the problem is this is graduate school and some of these guys are still swinging like they are in kindergarten.
is anybody else excited about the gardy bobblehead? does it get any better, maybe you get a little punto to follow him around.
The Twins emphasize aggresive hitting.
The Twins have had average or below average hitting for a long time.
Not a coincidence.
Teams with routinely good hitting, like Boston and NY, emphasize patience. Sure, they have high paid talent, but they emphasize patience top to bottom.
Unless your name is Vlad or Kirby, you should probably learn to take a pitch.
the one thing that firing Vavra and the other dead weights for coaches the Twins have (Ulger/Stelly/Liddle), esp if it comes with Smith over Gardy’s head is that the front office would, for the first time in this organization, draw a line and say “enough is enough”.
This is one of the reasons I think Kubel would do better elsewhere. He is naturally a patient hitter, and all he has heard Gardy tell him over the past few years is be more aggresive!
In order for the Twins to get more hr’s an uppercut swing must be used and Joe Vavra doesn’t teach that approach(no joke actually). They had him on tv talking about how he teaches the players how to hit the ball into the dirt and outrun the throw to first
I agree with Nealcp that good hitters look for their pitches. I would add that they are ready and prepared to let it fly when they see one. Mauer doesn’t normally do this. He admires nearly ever first strikes shown to him. He has shown that he can still hit for average with this approach, but not for power. This is flawed-patience.
Patience is a virtue — at times. You also need to know when to pull the trigger and let it rip. With Mauer and DY, you see both ends of the spectrum (Mauer never ready to hit the meat-FB on strike one and DY never waiting around for a meat-FB).
Gardy is absolutely right. Delmon doesn’t like striking out any more than any other star player. Trial and error is the best teacher. Give him his hacks.
If we got a hitting coach who taught the HR uppercut approach way more HR’s would show. When Vavra was with the Dodgers a million years ago they hit zero hr’s then also
What the hell were we thinking?
What is absolutely crucial and irreplacable for a kick-ASS offense?
BOOTY!!!!!
You can’t do without it.
How could we not see this coming?
I don’t think eaching our players with no power the uppercut swing is a very good idea. It might be cool to see a lot of ball land on the warning track if you are into that. I’m not so much.
sane I did see this coming and when I said something I was made fun of
Jared ZZZZZZZ well if people are complaining about HR production you can not very well hit hr’s if you want to hit the ball into the dirt and run. Has anyone noticed how much Gomez is being used like a faster version of Christian Guzman or Luis Rivas.
Come to think of it I don’t think there hitting coach in the leauge who would teach an upper cut swing. I think it’s something your born with. Besides swinging down on the ball is how you really want to swing if you want to hit a homerun.
swinging down on the ball is how you really want to swing if you want to hit a homerun. Watch some of the better HR hitters and see if they intentionally hit the ball into the dirt. I beg to differ that the power hitters do not use an uppercut swing.
Short choppy downward moving swings will not produce HR’s
They swing down on the ball and connect with the botten half of the ball. It creates backspin and the ball flys up and out. THe only hitters I can think of who were legit Power Hitters, I’m talking all-star players with an upper-cut swing are Mo vaughn and Ken Griffy Jr. Swinging down on the ball is how 98% of major leaugers swing. It’s elementary my dear Watson. The reason there are not more guys with the swing is becasue it is very difficult to pull of a the MLB level.
I need a flatbed truck and or forklift just to leave my house these days…
The swing doesn’t have to be short or choppy either. Jimmy Bee when is the last time you tried to hit a baseball. Swinging up doesn’t work. Ryan Howard, Prince Fielder, A-Rod, Manny, take a look they all swing down at the ball. THe follow threw might go up but so does everyone’s. I get what you are saying but teach the twins to start taking an upper-cut swing and were really doing to see some bad OBP’S.
so downward short chopping swings produce HR’s. Yep I remember Players like Mcguire and Barry Bonds using short downward chopping swings. How about Ryan Howard and Prince Fielder Short downward chopping swings also. Hmmmmmm…. Kind of weird Gomez with his short downward chopping swing reminds me of Cristian Guzman’s swing downward and outrun the throw to first.
HaHa
Mo Vaugh you might be a bit heavy but are a friggin genius. I think you might be the richest person to ever play pro ball and if not pretty close. Nice work my man, Nice work.
Jared ZZZZZZ I don’t think it matters if we get a power hitter as a DH in free agency if all we are going to do is ask him to swing with a short downward chopping swing. Maybe this is why we never really acquire one
Ideally you want a hitter to be a line-drive hitter, not a fly-ball hitter. If you are a line-drive hitter, which most good hitters are, you will get your share of HRs, if you have the power. If you are a flyball hitter, you get a lot of flyball outs, which are bad for a number of reasons, most importantly a flyball out involves just one fielder catching the ball to make an out. If you are a line-drive hitter, you will hit a lot of balls on the ground. This is better than hitting a fly ball out, because it usually involves more than one person working to get the out. A player has to field the ball cleanly, make a good throw, and another fielder has to catch the ball. More can go wrong, which increases your odds of getting on base with an error (see Saturday’s game with the Rangers).
You know I was looking at Christian Guzman and Luis Rivas’ stats and they had as many HR’s each year as Mauer.
Did you read my post. You can still have a long swing and swing down on the ball. I played college ball against Ryan Howard I got a pretty good view of his swing from the dugout and an upper-cut it is not.
Yes but a short downward chopping swing will also not produce a HR either. A level swing with an upward follow through is the best to produce power. This is not what Joe Vavra is teaching though. He wants the player to beat the ball into the rock hard surface and hope it goes by the infielder thus producing a hit and keeping the ball out of the air.
Jimmy Bee I know what you mean. Gomez might be trying to hit the ball on the ground. He is in an 0-2 count every time. He is just puting the ball in play (or tying too). He swings out of his a$$ most of the time. I agree with you we need more power. I just know you don’t have a very good idea of a proper swing.
I can’t think of anyone on the Twins team that has a short, choppy swing. Castillo did that, but it worked for him. Most everyone on the Twins is a line-drive hitter.
ES16 says Guzman had one Luis Rivas had one Gomez alot of the time has one. Redmond now and again has one with his tremendous power.
I am reading about how Vavra has the players creating spin on the ball by hitting it downward and creating spin on the ball and making it difficult for infielders to make plays on the ball. Kind of sounds like in pool how they can put english on the ball.
It’s all about taking pitches - this lineup is way too aggressive - do you know how annoying the Yankees are? They take and foul off SO MANY pitches, and the results are there. You’re all complaining about how there’s no power in the lineup, and while I agree, it shouldn’t matter that much. You have to have ducks on the pond to make HRs matter, and that’s where this team struggles - getting on base. Pitchers will give a few away from time to time - there’s no excuse for Vicente Padilla to only throw 120 pitches in 9 innings. We should be trying to get pitchers to throw 20 pitches an inning, not 12!
Worried? Why would Gardy ever worry??? I mean, he’s got an unwritten lifetime contract with this team, just because this Pohlad-sponsored corporation fears change more than death itself.
Worry? Gardy’s too arrogant nowadays to worry. He’s a Twins lifer, no matter how worthless he is as a teacher of the game.
Besides, who has the time to worry when the buffet is so damn big?!!
BTW: Vavra needs to be put out to pasture. When a team isn’t hitting despite its hitting upside, and this goes on year after year, and you look at the batting coach and realize he hasn’t been a batting coach at any other level of professional baseball…
Well…
It reminds me a little of Gardy’s career as a player.
Vavra should be fired on the spot.
and you look at the batting coach and realize he hasn’t been a batting coach at any other level of professional baseball…
Somebody once posted a break down of Vavra’s managerial/coaching career. It was actually very informative. And showed some experience.
It reminds me a little of Gardy’s career as a player.
Or Rick Anderson’s as a pitcher. Since apparently career success is a measure of coaching success.
Gardenhire should be fired just for that interview.
He proved right there he doesn’t know a god damn thing about hitting. Torii Hunter was freaking terrible as a hitter until two years ago, and for him to say it’s ok…
I hope he chokes on his bathroom Caulk.
Gardenhire is a good coach in how he gets his team to play for him, but I swear if someone put an IQ test in front of him his brain would melt out of his ears.
I also will not take any response other than yes you are right (T)
JOE VAVRA NEEDS TO BE FIRED RIGHT NOW!
Mulvey is getting hit hard in Rochester. 3.2 IP, 7 H, 4 BB, 1 HR, 6 R, 6 ER
Re: Vavra’s managerial/coaching record.
from 1989-1998 he managed the Dodgers Rookie league and A league teams. Then he became the ‘minors coordinator’ with the Twins.
As a player, the higher he reached was the pacific coast league (AAA), where he was a part time player, managing 72 AB in his last year, when he was 27 years old. Career home runs: 3 (in 5 seasons)
About the Vavra/Rick Anderson comparisons as players:
a. Anderson has pitched a no-hitter in the minor leagues
b. Anderson has played in the majors for 3 years
c. Anderson has a world series ring (with the Mets in 1986)
1. Harmon Killebrew, Bob Allison, Kirby, just to name some successful upper cut swingers.
2. Those who can’t do, teach. AKA, Tom Kelly.
Replay from previous arguments.
My apologies in advance. If its familiar, just scroll to the bottom.
Questions:
Approximately how many of the commenters who want Vavra’s head, have been in attendance at one of his hitting lectures, lessons or discussions?
How many of those who answered “yes”, have attended the hitting lectures, lessons or discussions of other MLB hitting instructors?
How many of those with two “yes” answers have written down the differences in techniques being taught between Vavra and the other MLB hitting instuctors?
How many of those can explain why Vavra’s techniques are inferior?
Answers: Nobody, nobody, nobody and nobody.
His results were good in 2006, bad in 2007 and bad so far this year.
If that trend continues, he will be replaced by another guy who will be skewered when its HIS turn. (Just like like his predecessors Ullger and Vavra)
I guess organizations are defined at the top. There’s so much wrong with Gardy’s quote.
* Taking pitches tires a pitcher and gets you to the bullpen earlier.
* Being a free swinger means you’ll never get good pitches since why pitch them?
* You play in the majors to get on base. Someone with a .000 BA but a .400 OBP is fine by my book.
and on and on…
“Someone with a .000 BA but a .400 OBP is fine by my book.”
For every 5 batters, two get on base and three make outs,
Nobody hits and two are left on base.
And nobody scores.
Great inning.
I was really excited about the Twins new lineup during spring training. But after horrible stats then that have carried over into the regular season, it makes you wonder.
It is still early. and I hope the Twins start doing something offensively. Seems like every time they get a well-pitched game, their offense does nothing, and vice-versa. So come on Twins - start doing something before you are 20 games out.
I was impressed I couldn’t even find Vavra’s minor league stats.
Torii Hunter was freaking terrible as a hitter until two years ago, and for him to say it’s ok…
Two years ago…man…what happened two years ago.
Oh yeah. That’s right. They hired ULGER.
I love when you walk right into it.
*well crap*
That should be “hired Varva.”
Oh well. I could go for some egg right now. Or crow. I’ve had crow before.
If that trend continues, he will be replaced by another guy who will be skewered when its HIS turn
Sane,
Not if he delivers and not if he has the respects of the players (i.e. he is someone with a legitimate ML career who the players can look up to, use as an example and listen) Other than White and Anderson, this team has pretty much gotten coaches (& manager) “off the street”. If you are a 22 year old aspiring all star, why would you listen to someone who has been a career mediocre minor leaguer? In order to teach something, you have to master it and it is clear that Vavra/Ullger/Liddle and Stelly are masters of nothing.
Sane,
Is it so much who we have talked to, or is it the fact that we have seen the results of the last two people that the TWINS thought were good enough, and that they need to go outside the organization?
I think if the problem is obvious, a solution shouldn’t be that hard to come up with. But They need to go outside the organization bigtime.
thrylos, the “Minor league stats” arugment doesn’t hold water, as Anderson’s “glorious” three year career wasn’t anything to write home about.
If you can disregard for who’s posting it for a moment, you may actually see something from me that shows why the whole “Fire Vavra” thing isn’t neccesarily the answer.
I’m going to repost this from earlier BC, because it’s building on sane’s comments. This is a concern regardless of if they hire from within or without.
Sure, they get rid of Vavra…then who do they bring in? They’ll bring in somebody who in their eyes was a good hitter and will be able to teach a style of hitting they like.
The problem isn’t the specific person, it’s the mentality of the Twins FO/management as a whole.
They need to recognize the problem in the mentality before they go out and try to find a new guy to teach how to hit. Otherwise they’ll just replace Joe Vavra with Joe Vavra.
T,
yes it wasn’t but it was better than that of any coach/manager of the Twins (other than White). Remember, he has a world series ring. In addition (and more importantly), he has been a great pitching coach, delivering results in any level he coached…
thrylos98,
“In order to teach something, you have to master it”
That is an absolute falsehood.
Walt Hriniak and Charley Lau were two nobodies as hitters but were also two of the best hitting coaches ever.
How good a football player was George Halas?; Al Davis?
How good a basketball player was Red Auerbach?
How good a baseball player was Connie Mack?; Tom Kelly? Walter Alston?
You could hire Alex Johnson as your hitting coach. Tremendous hitter. Problem was - he never spoke - he wouldn’t say sh-t if he had a mouthful.
Remember, he has a world series ring…
Doug Mint-Sandwhich has a WS ring.
But I understand. Anderson has shown success in the past molding pitchers. But as sane pointed out, Vavra had a bad year and a poor year. That’s 50/50, and he’s got a bunch of new (and young) hitters to work with.
And I bet Gomez and Young are giving him headaches right now.
Ulger was 3 years ago 2005. They GOT RID OF ULGER, but it also happens that 2006 was the very first year of Joe Mauer for a full season, 2006 was the year that Francisco Liriano came out of nowhere. 2006 was the year that Brad Radke pitched out of his mind with half an arm, and luckily Vavra came around in 2007.
Ulger blew goats for quarters, and Vavra gives change back.
The problem isn’t the specific person, it’s the mentality of the Twins FO/management as a whole.
I could not agree more.
That’s why I think that
a. Gardy, Vavra, Ullger, Stelly and Liddle should pack their bags,
b. There need to be major changes in the minor league staff
c. Tom Kelly and Tony Oliva should not be allowed within driving distance of the spring training facilities
d. Power hitting should be valued as a skill at least as much as defense and pitching in personnel decisions
if this team wants to see another
championship.
Those would be drastic changes. For now, firing a couple of Gardy’s buddies will make the point that the Twins are serious to turn this thing around…
BC,
Good points, but Morneau, Mauer, Punto, Cuddyer, Redmond, Hunter and Bartlett had career HITTING years. Vavra was the hitting coach and all the above players went nuts at the plate. Maybe Vavra wasn’t the reason, but he was a factor.
And if RESULTS are the measuring stick that Vavra-bashers want to use, USE THAT!!!
sane,
that was a different world… back then people of authority were automatically respected just because of their position. Now, a 22 y.o. player will (and has every right to) say “and who are you? and where did that get you?” for every suggestion that a manager/coach makes. Back then they played for the love of the game. Now they play for dollars. Good or bad, that’s the reality and we can reminisce about the ‘good ol’ days’ as much as we want to, but they are not coming back. Hrbek’s highest annual paycheck was $3.1 mil a year, and Gaetti’s with the Twins was $2.4 mil/year. That’s about what the Twins are paying Punto for a year of play now. Different times. The young players need someone(s) to look up to because of merit and not just authority and this organization should understand it.
And I bet Gomez and Young are giving him headaches right now
I highly doubt it… I bet he cannot even communicate with Gomez. Check it out at the next telecast: after a bad at bat, Gomez seeks Livan Hernandez at the bench to talk to and not Vavra… I wonder why?
The trick then is to not only find a good hitter that wants to coach, but that would be a good coach.
Somebody used an example of I think Eddie Murray in Cleveland. I hope I have the right example.
And since the “Fire Gardy” machine looks like it may be warming up. May I ask, who would be a good replacement?
Would Anderson be a good suggestion? If you dump Gardy while in the process of rebuilding, you risk losing the team. Promoting Anderson while bringing in new coaches under him woudl at least keep a guy the players know, respect, and likely a guy that would do a good job.
thrylos:
I think that’s why you sometimes see Punto go to the mound with Gardy. Get a translator in there.
May I ask, who would be a good replacement?
for Gardy: the had coach of San Diego State University Azteks would have my vote
make that the ‘head coach’
thrylos98,
You got me.
I dated myself,but I am not as old as Connie Mack or George Halas.
Moving closer to this millenium.
Bill Bellicek, Brad Childress, Tommy Lasorda, Eric Wedge, Joe Maddon, Bob Geren and Jim Leyland were just average or worse as players.
They are/were managers/coaches who command(ed) respect.
T-
That’s a great point. And I’ve suggested that from day one that the Team has no hitting philosophy at all.
They need to go out and do to the hitting what they did when they brought in Anderson and company for the pitching. They need to make it a priority, hire scouts that are scouting for players with a good eye at the plate.
It’s pretty simple that you can’t fire the team if they fail, you have to drop the coach.
Molitor, Oliva, Hrbek, Carew coached the Twins hitters in spring training with worse results than Vavra is getting in regular season.
Maybe those guys weren’t good enough hitters in MLB to get the hitters attention.
Oh by the way, San Diego State coached by Tony Gwynn is the SECOND BEST college team in San Diego behind USD.
I guess he can’t coach hitters as well as he hit, either.
sane,
from the examples you are listing
Bill Bellicek had really lost the respect of his players (google Lewis and Bellicek)
Brad Childress; if the Vikings don’t make it deep into the playoffs this year he is in his last legs
Tommy Lasorda (last coached in the last millennium)
Joe Maddon is an absolute joke. If you have some time read the Tampa Bay news writers comments about him. He never won anything either.
Bob Geren and Eric Wedge haven’t won anything (or at least Wedge won a bit more than Gardy…)
Jim Leyland, won only with a team who had great players (Marlins in the last millenium)
I like many of the suggestions.
Beats hell out of “Punto sucks”; “Fire SOMEBODY”; “Trade SOMEBODY”; “Release SOMEBODY” and “Ship SOMEBODY to SOMEWHERE” rants.
Right now if I had control of the team…
I would keep Gardy as the coach this year. The players play for him. I would also keep Anderson because he would be my manager next season. I would bring up the cliborn brothers next year as my bench coach and my pitching coach.
Vavra, Ulger are gone immediately, I would bring one of the roaving coaches at extended spring training to be the 1st base coach and make Jerry White the bench coach.
And I would ask the Yankees for permission to hire Butch Wyneger as their hitting coach, or look at the AAA hitting coaches for the Dodgers, or the Red Sox, but I like Wyneger because he has minor league managing skills, he’s a former catcher so he can relate with Mauer, and have something in common to connect them…
And he’s a Yankee so he knows something about winning, and class.
Was he a better hitter than any of the other guys I mentioned in the past? Nope, but he has a track record as a major league player, as a minor league player, as a minor league manager, and as a major league 3rd base coach, and now as a minor league hitting coach.
Thrylos,
Leyland was Florida’s manager when the Marlins won the World Series and was a two-time NL Manager of the Year with the Pittsburgh Pirates when they won three division titles in the early 1990s.
But I guess your point is that he would have been a much better manager if he had been respected as a player.
That would be nonsense.
I’ll throw another name for a bench coach up there. You probably never heard of him but you will soon: Mike Rojas. (Cookie’s son) This team needs some Latin American coaches really badly and he is probably the best of the up an coming ones…
sane,
what I am saying about Leyland is that he did not win anything recently. Period.
Today’s ballplayers have a different mentality than those of the last century…
Sane, so who peed in your cheerios today? You are just jacked tonight, I love all of the attitude problem coming out of you tonight. You usually don’t show this kind of temper. I really like it even if you aren’t agreeing with me.
And I agree… whene we get into a real conversation on here it’s much better, but it’s as easy for me to rely on my thinking that my 8 year old daughter is a better hitter than Punto, and my 8 year old Dog would be a better hitting instructor than Vavra kind of like it is easy for Gardy to forsake common sense, and keep Vavra around, and keep bringing in Juan Rincon to lose games.
Thrylos98,
Your other point must be that Bill Bellicek is an unsuccesssful head coach, because he was not a respected player.
Uh……no!
BC,
I am calm, just politely disagreeing.
sane,
all i am saying about Bellicek is that he was not respected by his players as a head coach.
and football is a 16 game and not an 162 game season… totally different dynamics
And I am saying a coach can get results without having been a repected player.
In any era and in any sport.
respected not repected.
thrylos,
Excellent suggestion about Mike Rojas for the reasons you suggested.
Attention everyone:
There are simply too many problems with this team to reasonably think that addressing “the hitting” is going to make the Twins a playoff contender. The bullpen is overrated and the starting rotation is young and experienced. The pitching will improve over the next few seasons as will the hitting (when Young and Gomez mature). The Twins will not climb above .500 again until at least 2010. Just deal with that and enjoy watching some baseball. It’s easier that way.
I grew up a Pirates fan. Stories of Clemente, watching Al Oliver, Stargell, Johnny Ray, Tony Pena, Bill Madlock, Dave Parker, and then Bonilla, Bonds, Van Slyke, Drabek…
I watched a lot of Pirates games over the years, and I watched a lot of the games with the Marlins, and through all the years of watching baseball in general, Jim Leyland is a top 5 manager I have EVER seen coach the game of baseball. So a coach, or a manager doesn’t have to be a great player… most great players don’t end up being great managers, but those players that work their asses off to over-achieve… that’s the guys that end up making good managers a lot of the time. It’s not perfect because Mike Scocia was an all star catcher and is the best manager in the game currently (my opinion).
Bobby Cox, Jim Leyland, Sparkey Anderson, Joe Torre, and Whitey Herzog are the best managers I’ve ever seen.
Tony LaRussa, Tom Kelly, Tommy Lasorda, Davey Johnson, Dick Howser are the second tier,
Mike Scocia is flying up the ranks though, and Eric Wedge shows serious promise, but he’s more on par with Gardy in that they both do a lot of things really good, but are seriously deficient in evaluating their own coaching staffs.
Chris D.,
I hear what you say but there are several issues in play here:
a. The Twins can win this season if adjustments are made (and it’s not the ‘hitting coach’). The pitching this year is better than last year and the batting has potential that just has not been reached yet.
b. If things do not change and the ‘let’s play for 2010′ mentality kicks off, 2010 will be wasted, if the same organizational philosophy continues
c. Gardy has been getting a free ride for 5+ years by the press, while he has been (at best) a mediocre manager, making poor decisions (like cutting the best hitter in this organization other that Kirby Puckett, assuring the FO that Punto can be an everyday 3rd basement in 2007, mismanaging his pitching stuff, going in meaningful postseason games with Matt LeCroy as the DH etc etc etc). This cannot continue if this team hopes to win now, next year, 2010 or 2110.
d. People should be held accountable for what they deliver. Is as simple as that.
The worst managers I’ve ever seen?
Bobby Valentine is the worst without a doubt. Ron Washington I hate to say it, but his players have no respect for him, so he has to get out of there, and maybe he could come be our bench coach? I think he’s a great guy, and proved to be a very good coachin Oakland.
Ozzie Guillen. This guy is a freaking cartoon, and an assclown. Throws his players under the bus which Gardy has done a few times that is disgusting… he hated Cuddyer for a while I swear the guy wouldn’t play and Gardenhire would find a way to bring him up in the disappointment aspect of a game, and then he went to RF and became a golden prophet next to baby jesus. But Guillen… oh man… if Valentine would never have coached in the majors… Ozzie Guillen would be the Kevin McHale of Major league baseball…
Cito Gaston (most anyone can manage a world class product to be successful, but as soon as some of the talent was gone, all of his coaching ability went away.
Lou Pinella. This guy turns up like a bad penny to steal a cliche. He’s freaking worthless. Hot head… thinks he’s god… perfect for the Cubs a team that will always think they are better than they are, and are fatally flawed to screw it up in the clutch.
Ray Knight. He’s a lousy broadcaster, overrated as a ball player, and he had a superstar mentality with slightly better than bench player ability, and his attitude problem lead to many teams he was with under-achieving.
BC,
Good catch.
How could I forget Sparky Anderson when trying to recall poor players who became great managers?
thrylos,
Cutting David Ortiz was the GM’s decision. Gardy was in on it to some extent, but that would be on Terry Ryan’s shoulders, and it wasn’t a horrible move because Ortiz was passed by all other teams in baseball, and was given a flyer by Boston who needed a left handed bat off the bench. No one knew he was going to be THIS GUY. Would I have kept him over Dougy Tbag? of course. I know it’s hard to believe, but I was bashing him from the middle of his rookie season on. But I miss that commercial the Twins had of his. It was the 2nd best commerical the Twins have ever had in my opinion. (I loved the Santana/Nathan commercial from last year).
So to answer your questions
A) NO THEY CAN’T
B) I agree, they need to redo the entire hitting concept for the team
C) Gardy isn’t perfect, and I enjoy ripping him, but he also provided several division winning teams, and teams that were always ready to play on the field, and would we be having this hardcore of a discussion if we were outplayed like this by Boston or New York, and not a team that isn’t worth testing nuclear weapons on?
Gardy like all other Minnesota sports coaches, administration, and players gets off too easy in this state. Everyone in the media here except for Barreiro and sometimes Souhan are wanting to be liked… Sid and the Sid-ettes in a way, but that doesn’t mean that they do a bad job… I like Joe, and LaVelle. I think Jerry does a pretty good job with the Wolves though I miss Ashy, and what little I pay attention to the Vikings and the Wild, their beat writers are pretty passionate. I just tend to like the Danny B philosophy… rip ‘em when they do poorly, and then dig harder to find something to rip them about if they are doing ok… and if they do well… give them the props they deserve.
Ted Williams was oh… dare I say the greatest hitter to ever play the game, and one of the greatest fishermen to ever live, a great fighter pilot, and an American ICON, idol, and role model… he is one of the greatest American men from a Heroic standpoint that ever graced our great country…
He was a lousy freaking manager.
Get them OUT OF THE #@*! DOME and we will see a much better team.
going from a political standpoint, everyone knows I’m a pretty hardcore liberal, but Jimmy Carter is the 2nd worst president to ever live. Yet I’d dare say he is one of the greatest American amabassodors this country has ever had.
Kevin McHale was a great basketball player, but there are insane men playing with their crap in rubber rooms who I would entrust the Timberwolves to before I let McHale do another day’s time with the team…
Just because people are great at one thing doesn’t mean that they are going to be great leaders, and just because someone wasn’t the most talented doesn’t mean they can’t come up and learn how to lead a team, or a country. Before Watergate… look at Nixon…
Look at Byron Scott (he was good but not great as a basketball player)
And how many Hall of Fame baseball players have made great coaches? not many.
How many Ron Gardenhires, and Eric Wedge’s and Jim Leylands have made it to the playoffs or world series as managers? A LOT
Tony Dungy wasn’t a great NFL player… wouldn’t he be like the second coming (oops sorry Joe Mauer) 3rd Coming of Christ if he were coaching the Vikings?
Bill Cowher wasn’t a great NFL player, but I’d take him as the headcoach.
I don’t know anything about Hockey… I’m almost Sid like there, but was Jacque Lemair a great hockey player?
The point is that you can coach/manage, or you cannot. and Joe Vavra has not shown me squat. Scott Ulger less than Vavra, and Gardenhire may need to go down with the ship with sticking up for his coaches, but Gardy doesn’t deserve to be lumped in as a lousy manager because he has lousy coaches.
Tom Kelly lost a lot more games than he won, but everyone thinks of him as a god for two world series titles… they don’t think of him like we do of Dick Such.
You are only as good as your players, and your coaches allow you to be, and Gardy is deficient in some of his game management skills, and in his loyalty to his coaches… There are worse things… he could be Ozzie Guillen or Bobby Valentine!!!
Take a look at the batting stats for the Senators before, during and after William’s tenure as manager. He had a terrible team with bad talent who wouldn’t work as hard as Ted had as a player, but they learned how to HIT.
Maybe we need to make William’s book on hitting required reading for our hitting coach and our players. There is a lot of knowledge there.
Yeah, Williams wasn’t a good manager. How can a manager who thinks all pitchers are stupid handle a pitching staff?
Ben Revere went over the wall and escaped from Extended Spring Training.
He played LF for Beloit tonight.
He went 0-3 and committed an error.
I have looked hard at all the posts and I believe you have all missed the point of the hitting problems: TOM KellY: His philosophy of “using the whole field” was taught to all the coaches we now have and they can’t think any other way. They ruin any potential power hitters (but our scouts can’t find many either). Just think back to the article last year where D. Ortiz stated he was criticized by TK for swinging for the fences. It is a mind set and we need to bring in someone from outside the orginization for some fresh ideas. Gardy and staff are stale. The big boppers of 87 did what they wanted and hit homers. I am sick of these shut-outs every other day. I agree with the fire Gardy and Vavra chants.
Gardy like all other Minnesota sports coaches, administration, and players gets off too easy in this state.
My take on the media perception is that the local press tends to track down more off the field antics to tear the team apart with, rather than the more exected “criticize their play” approach.
I still feel that the local sports media chased Moss out of town. Or at least tried its darndest to shape the perception of the fanbase so we wouldn’t miss him.
It ticked me off.
————
One thing I’ve noticed this year…has Gardy been tossed yet? Considering how things have gone the past few games, maybe good ol’ Showtime should pick up his top hat and cane and take to the field to try and fire this team up.
He’s pretty calm in the press, but I have a feeling his guys are hearing it after the last road trip. Perhaps finally just unload on the ump at some point in the Chicago series and publically show that he’s fed up.
T-
Gardy’s knees, and his back are pretty much out of whack so he’s been relegated to Boof Bonser mode (whining on the bench, and not going ballistic on the mound.
Captain Bogs,
I have 4 of Ted Williams’ books, and one of the greatest things I’ve ever read was a Peter Gammons article back in the 80’s in Sports Illustrated with Ted Williams, Wade Boggs, and Don Mattingly.
Ted taught them how to hit, but he didn’t know how to hire a coaching staff, and he didn’t understand the concept of pitching much at all, it was all Hero time. Don’t hit the ball the other way, pull the ball.
But yeah… even in his flaws he taught people how to be better people, and baseball players how to be much better baseball players because who in the hell would argue with Ted Williams?
I’ve read Ted’s book. There’s a lot of good stuff in there, but ultimately, it is a book of “How Ted Williams hits”, not “how everyone should hit.” Because “everyone” isn’t capable of hitting .406 & 521 HR’s. Guys who hit for power AND average are freaks of nature - everyone can’t do it.
Ted Williams also played a different game - the mound in his era was 15″ high, 10″ now. So - - today’s pitcher releases the ball from a point 5 inches lower than he would’ve in Williams’ day (more or less - the slope on the old mound was steeper, so it wouldn’t be the full 5 inches).
The best hitters release the bat tip from high to level - - - it goes up after contact, not before.
The notion of “getting on top of the ball” is a function of the most common error (and the easiest out) - the fly ball. Go to a game and count every ball hit (fair or foul) - does the majority of struck balls go up? or down?
Uppercuts produce pop ups, fly balls & slow rollers; a level swing produces harder ground balls (the plane of the swing being closer to the direction of the hit ball than is the case in the uppercut swing, more force is applied to the ball).
Ideally, you want your hitters to be patient enough to wait for a hitter’s pitch & aggressive enough to attack it if it’s the first pitch they see.
Young’s swinging at too many ‘pitcher’s pitches’; Mauer’s history has been to let too many hitter’s pitches go by (last year, he was taking BP fastballs for strike one).
