Agent says union will investigate Twins’ handling of Liriano
Posted on July 17th, 2008 – 3:39 PMBy Joe Christensen
Francisco Liriano’s agent, Greg Genske, today confirmed a FoxSports.com report that the players’ union has agreed to investigate whether the Twins are violating the collective bargaining agreement by keeping the lefthander in the minors.
“I have not been informed that anything’s been filed,” Twins General Manager Bill Smith told the Star Tribune. “I’m not going to worry about it.”
Liriano has two years and 45 days of major league service time. A player needs three years of service time to qualify for arbitration, but of the players with between two and three years, the top 17 percent qualify for arbitration as “Super Twos.”
For Liriano, qualifying for arbitration would likely earn him more than $1 million in additional 2009 salary, but even if the Twins promoted him today, with 74 days remaining in the season, he would likely fall far short of the Super Two threshold.
“We contacted the players’ association and laid out the facts and they determined that it was reasonable cause to initiate an investigation,” Genske told the Star Tribune.
Asked if the team factors service time into roster decisions, Smith said, “Our only goal is winning games. That’s all it’s ever been.”
Added Genske: “All I will say is that we felt there were enough facts to warrant a contact with the players’ association and get them involved in the matter.”
After a sensational rookie season in 2006, Liriano underwent Tommy John elbow surgery. He returned to the big leagues for 14 days in April of this season but was sent back to Class AAA Rochester after going 0-3 with an 11.32 ERA.
Liriano has rebounded at Rochester, going 7-0 with a 2.93 ERA in his past 10 starts. But the Twins are 21-7 in their past 28 games and have been generally pleased with all five of their current starters.
“It’s a difficult situation,” Smith said. “I know [Liriano’s] frustrated. I know he wants to get back to the big leagues. He’s a competitor. We’re thrilled to see how well he’s doing. In his last 10 starts, each one was a little bit better than his previous one.
“I have no doubt that he’s going to be a big part of this organization in the future.”
Smith compared Liriano to Denard Span, who was thriving at Rochester but had to wait for a promotion until a roster spot opened because of Michael Cuddyer’s injury.
“There is no timetable, and I think everyone understands that,” Smith said. “I speak to the agent [Genske], a lot more than I speak to Francisco.”
(*) Staff writer La Velle E. Neal III contributed to this story.
265 Responses to "Agent says union will investigate Twins’ handling of Liriano"
Poor agent wants his cut of the big bucks NOW…
Here are comments after Liriano’s outing July 5, from the Rochester NY Paper:
“We all know he’s on the way back to where he was,” manager Stan Cliburn said. “No one knows what that timetable is but he’s not worried about it, I’m not worried about it and Minnesota isn’t worried about it.”
Which may be a blessing. Liriano is working to regain his oh-so-dominating form from 2006, when he was 12-3 with a 2.16 ERA with the Twins before a tendon injury in his left elbow required reconstructive surgery.
He missed all of 2007 and is just now overpowering hitters with his three-pitch repertoire of fastball, slider and changeup.
And after the June 30 outing:
Francisco Liriano says he’s past the point at which he wonders when the Minnesota Twins will call.
“I’m OK being here,” the former phenom and current Red Wing said Monday night. “When it’s the time, I know the Twins will call me up.”
He’s just getting into a groove. The agent is just looking for his own share of the pie.
And he’s (agent) a little short-sided. Liriano won’t qualify for Super 2 according to this blog.
I guess he needed to investigate this back after one of the poor outings at the end of May, when he gave up 7 hits and 6 runs. He OBVIOUSLY was being held back then (eyes rolling).
it is time for smith to sh** or get off the pot. 1 1/2 gm out now it’s time to help this team it may be yrs before everything falls into place again like this. part of that is bring up liriano and replace livan in the rotation. either livan, boof or bass go. get a rh 3b to protect the big canuck.
What are the odds that they win this grievance? I mean how hard would it be to convince whoever it is that looks at these things how FL is better then Slowey or Perkins?
Asked if the team factors service time into roster decisions, Smith said, “Our only goal is winning games. That’s all it’s ever been.”
If that is the case, then why haven’t you release Hernandez and inserted Liriano into his place in the rotation? THAT is how you show your commitment to winning games–going with your best players. Not washed up players who you feel are good because they are “veterans.”
BRING BACK LIRIANO!
Liriano won’t qualify for Super 2 according to this blog.
If the Twins make the post season, he will qualify unless he is called up after 7/27…
i don’t think it has a chance in hell right now. i think they best bring him up though.
I know this will sound crazy, but what if the Twins looked at his performance of late and his past performance in the bigs and went ahead and locked him up to a contract skipping arbitration.
if the Twins make the postseason, it is worth the extra money!
Shawn you maybe right but what if they do call him up and he dominates again but fails to qualify then what?
Here are the numbers for super two:
Cutoff for super two: 2 years, 128 days of service
Liriano so far: 2 years, 45 days
If called up today:
74 days left:
2 years 119 days
If the Twins make it through the ALDS:
Total: 2 years 126 days
If the Twins make it through the ALCS:
Total: 2 years 135 days
If the Twins make it through the WS:
Total: 2 years 144 days
So the Twins need to reach the ALCS in order to pay Super 2? I think that is more than worth it.
I do not believe there is any reason to sign him up long term right now, or worry about this “investigation”; it will come to nothing, Liriano will be called up within one month assuming he does not blow up, and the Twins will have a chance to evaluate him for a year or two to determine whether he warrants a long term deal. They have control of him for several years regardless of whether he qualifies for arb in two years or three years. It would be foolhard to give him a lucrative, guaranteed deal right now, given his most recent injury and history of injuries. He could end up being another Jake Westbrook, Carl Pavano,… Joe Mays.
OK, so I’m seeing a lot of calls to bring up Frankie and release/trade Livan, but what happens if Liriano or one of the other young pitchers gets hurt or loses it? Then who do you fall on? Boof? Maybe another young, unproven AAA pitcher?
Livan isn’t as bad as some people seem to believe, but I think he deserves credit for working with the young pitchers and making them better and for winning games.
If they win the grievance it would set a dangerous precedent for small market clubs and their ability to control their prospects. A team like the Twins only gets to hold onto their stars for a limited amount of time to begin with. If prospects feel they are being short changed with respect to service time by being in the minors and can demand a call up by threatening a grievance, this adds yet another limitation for small markets to be competitive for any sustained amount of time.
I wonder if Liriano is pitching tonight?
Nice math, Thrylos, but it doesn’t apply:
The CBA defines ‘championship season’ as follows - “During the term of this Agreement, each Club shall be scheduled to
play 162 games during each championship season.”
Major league service time is also defined with reference to the ‘championship season’ - “One full day of Major League service will be credited for
each day of the championship season a Player is on a Major League
Club’s Active List. A total of 172 days of Major League credited
service will constitute one full year of credited service. A Player
may not be credited with more than one year of credited service, 172
days, in one championship season. Major League service will be
computed commencing with the date of the first regularly scheduled
championship season game, through and including the date of the
last regularly scheduled championship season game. This rule shall
apply uniformly to all Players and all Clubs notwithstanding differences
in a particular Club’s schedule.”
Post-season play is not considered when determining a players service time.
They did the exact same thing to Johan Santana to reduce his service time and get an extra “cheap” year out of him.
Here’s the funny part. They have four starters who have performed well, and they have Livan who is slowly turning into what Silva was by the end of last year.
The Twins can’t just MAKE Liriano fit on the roster. They have to move somebody else. Which means they’d have to either cut a guy loose or force a trade they may not want to make.
Forcing team’s to make roster moves or else pay the price is a poor precident to set.
And if they release Livan…then how is that fair to him? His contract is based on innings pitched. He could just file a grieveance back saying the Twins cut him because they don’t want him to reach his IP bonuses.
But if you’re going to go to arbitration because an AGENT of all people thinks his player is dominant and ready….then what next?
If there is such a conspiracy against Liriano then why did they have him up earlier this year? There would be no issue if he had pitched well earlier in the year and, oh by the way, the Twins would be in first place.
Release Livan? Hell no! Why would you get rid of an innings eater, who, while having an inflated ERA, can still give you a good game almost every other start? The guy typically has spelled the bullpen for a lot of the season for the other pitchers who are new to the rotation, and for Baker who was hurt. If anyone, get rid of Bonser. Eat another cheeseburger on the way out why don’t you? And, whomever keeps calling for Delmon Young to be gotten rid of…seriously? At 22 years old, the guy has significant upside. Has he had any run ins with anyone while he’s been here? Nope. I think they are doing a great job in being able to win and keep Liriano in a situation where there is less stress, while building up arm strength. If you recall, this whole arm thing developed because he did not say anything about it hurting…and look what happened? Gotta be careful with these guys and not rush them back.
I’m getting in the mood to “crack skulls” again, with all the “Livan’s bad and need to go” crap I’m reading and hearing (on KFAN right now)…and Liriano’s agent taking a slimy/self-serving cue from Drew Rosenhaus, Peter Greenberg, et.al.! Argh!
The guy is giving the Twins EXACTLY what team mgmt. and coaches (and I) expected he would give them: leadership, experience, lots of innings with albeit a high ERA. Plus, the guy has a legitimate shot at 15+ wins, conservatively!!!
But no, that’s not enough for you…idiots! Yes, I said idiots.
Livan’s made his case to be a solid member of the Twins. Now, if the Twins remain in contention, ‘Liriano keeps putting up big numbers (and his cool and tones down the impatience…) at AAA, and another team calls the Twins with a solid trade offer for Livan prior to the playoffs, then and only then do I part with him.
Argh!
Can someone explain how Liriano already has over 2 yrs of service time? He only pitched in 6 games in 2005 and 3 this year. It doesn’t seem like that could add up to over a year of service time…
The other consideration is Liriano’s innings count for the season. Coming off of TJ, I doubt they are looking for him to throw 200 IP this year, the last 70 or so in the heat of a pennant race while trying to feel his way back at the same time.
No way the team loses that grievance. They have health reasons and depth reasons that are legitimate.
“Livan isn’t as bad as some people seem to believe”
Yeah, he is. He’s just as bad as other washed up veterans we’ve brought in over the years, the difference being Livan gets run support. Yeah there are benefits to keeping him around (working with and supporting the young staff being the most obvious) but they’re outweighed by the disadvantages. And he occasionally puts together a good outing, but those are getting few and far between. He doesn’t give this team the best chance to win every night he takes the mound.
Not to mention, the longer Frankie is in the minors, the fewer outings he’ll be able to give the Twins because you have to think they’re limiting his workload.
His agent isn’t doing him any help crying in public like he is. What a dummy. Liriano ought to get rid of him.
The twins are playing great baseball. They can use great pitching like everyone else. If the kid is ready, Gardy would bring him up. But before he was sent down, he wasn’t impressing anyone.
?,
you forgot 2006 
btw, he is starting for Rochester in less than an hour
Re: Livan Hernandez
I should have closed by saying that if I was Bill Smith, I’d listen to late-season offers for Livan under the prevailing conditions I mentioned. BS and Gardy may very well wish to see him in the starting rotation during the playoffs.
If the Twins were playing a “service time” scam, they would never have brought him up when they did this spring. On hind sight, everyone including FL, probably wished they had done what they’re doing now.
this is stupid as heck. The Twins could USE Liriano, even if initially for long or mid relief duty, as people here have suggested.
Why create a problem with an agent, even though agents are idiots, when its really to your benefit to get Liriano up here.
Dear ?,
The Collective Bargaining Agreement says that time spent on the Disabled List is considered major league service time. So all the time that Liriano was on the DL, he was accruing service time.
It has nothing to do with service time or money, if it did why would the Twins start the season with him in the rotation? He stunk up the joint and is now finally dominating AAA hitters, his time will come,
Like has been said though, there is no room for him now. Baker, Slowey, Blackburn and Perkins all have earned a spot. The only possible guy he could replace is Livin, but you can’t get rid of the only vet/innings eater on the staff….especially since our young pitchers will be throwing more innings then they ever have before.
I think they could bring Francisco up and put Slowey in the bull pen and solve two problems. Slowey only wants to throw the fastball anyway.
To give Livan fair credit, you have to look at the following split:
In wins (9): ERA 2.26, Op OPS .695
In loses (6): ERA 10.80, Op OPS 1.054
In ND (5): ERA 7.06, Op OPS 1.018
which means that in his wins, it was all him and not run support. He has been an all or none type of pitcher. In half of his starts he is great in the other half awful.
service time should have nothing to do with it. We need Liriano, get him, forget about the saving a few dollars here and there implications.
This Cheap Carl is driving me nuts.
Patrick,
Livan has held his own.
As to giving the team the best chance to win each night. Liriano, so far this year gave ZERO chance. Granted, that was long ago, just not a provable statement.
Also, at least two of the young starters have had HIGH compliments to his help (I’m sure they have bonus clauses to make those unwarranted comments).
I think it will prove foolish to cut him loose without a decent offer.
Regard,
“The Twins could USE Liriano, even if initially for long or mid relief duty, as people here have suggested.”
Gardy said flat-out on his ‘CCO Sunday morning radio show that ‘Liriano would NOT be brought up to pitch out of the bullpen. So, Orig. Kevin, you can disregard whatever is suggested by contributors here!
johnny you forgot silva, zito, santana, hampton, brown….
Long story short, Liriano’s agent would have a complaint if there was an open roster spot and Liriano was in the minors.
As it stands, there isn’t one. Twins can’t make one without sending down a player (who does his agent propose ISN’T MLB ready?) or trade somebody (can the agent MAKE another team accept the Twins terms?)
There’s no argument here. The Twins called up Liriano earlier this year. He got absolutely SHELLED. Had he been dominant then he’d still be here and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
“the guy has a legitimate shot at 15+ wins”
This does not mean he’s a good pitcher.
One other thing to consider is why wait until it gets deeper into a race to call him up? Why not call him up now so he can adjust to the level of play and amount of pressure while allowing the team more leeway to cover for him if he falters? If we call him up in August and he puts together 2 bad outings in a row we won’t have as much time to gain back ground in the standings.
Not that I think he is/will be better than Poncho, but Livan’s second half numbers over his career do suggest a better second half.
Personally, I am NOT a Livan fan, but there is at least a tiny reason for him to stick around. I don’t but the Post-season experience thing however. Didn’t do a ton for Johan, Radke et al…
Gardy doesnt have a show on CCO anymore
“I think they could bring Francisco up and put Slowey in the bull pen and solve two problems. Slowey only wants to throw the fastball anyway.”
Wha?! He’s been arguably our best starter over the past month. That’s a horrible idea. If anything, put Liriano in the pen to start and let him adjust.
“Long story short, Liriano’s agent would have a complaint if there was an open roster spot and Liriano was in the minors.”
Exactly. This is the agent just trying to force the Twins hand.
Closed-circuit to Joe Christensen or LEN III…please educate “Patrick” and “Livan Bashers” as to Livan’s value to the club and all the implications of bringing up “The Franchise” too soon/too early/at this time!!!!! I can’t take it any more…
the only people complaining about livan hernandez are the bandwagon fans that love nick punto and jason tyner. real twins fans know he’s a solid veteran starter who eats innings. he’s always had a high era, thats nothing new. the important thing is he pitches a ton of innings, 8 years in a row with 200+
“Gardy doesnt have a show on CCO anymore.”
Thanks “O.K”. Gardy on KSTP 1500 AM. My bad.
So now agents get to make personnel decisions? What a horsesa**. Frankie was geared up to start the season and clearly needed time, lots of it, to get his game right. Maybe he is on track now, but whose job is he going to take? If we put LH in the ‘pen, who has to leave then? Lots of moves to accomodate this agents idea of fairness. Baseball has the most screwed up player-management relations in all of professional sports. I for one would rather see a season-long strike than having another CBA with all the warts of this one.
Yes, educate us on how a pitcher on his way to setting a record in hits given up per nine innings is a valued asset on this team. Livan has gotten some wins and has had some good starts, but his overall performance qualifies him as one of the worst (if not the worst) starting pitcher in the league.
And unless it’s sarcasm the same people calling for Livan’s removal from the rotation aren’t the ones who supported giving Tyner and Punto at bats.
“please educate “Patrick” and “Livan Bashers” as to Livan’s value to the club”
Don’t worry about that. I’m very educated when it comes to Livan’s value. I often visit Aaron Gleeman University.
“There are 46 starters in the AL who’ve pitched enough to qualify for the ERA title. Hernandez ranks either dead last or second-to-last in ERA, opponent’s batting average, opponent’s on-base percentage, opponent’s slugging percentage, and opponent’s OPS. He also has by far the worst Win Probability Added among AL pitchers at -1.72. He’s been horrible, nine wins or not.”
Why would you want him to eat innings?!?! Sorry if giving the bullpen a rest while sacrificing a chance at winning more games doesn’t make sense to me.
The thing with Livan.
He has been ok sometimes, dreadful sometimes. If the Twins could use him as a #5 and would skip him for off days, i’d have no problem keeping him. I believe he has probably been a good influense on a young staff.
However,
The Twins have 5 starters better. Some teams do not. If the Twins want to use Liriano or Perkins out of the bully for a month to diminish innings on the youn arms… at the expense of getting rid of a Bass, I’m all for it. However, to honestly say Livan gives the team game in and out a better chance to win than the other 4 starters and Liriano is quite foolish.
unfortunetly, The Phillies just got Blanton and probably don’t have the glaring need for a starter.
I like potato chips!
For those scoring at home, batters facing Livan Hernandez at this point in the season are hitting .342 against him.
That isn’t a typo.
Livan is, on average, putting every player that he faces: 1) in the lead to win the AL batting title; 2) in position to be voted into the Hall of Fame; 3) in place to bat 3rd or 4th.
For readers of Moneyball and students of Bill James, the fact that Livan has only struck out 45 batters in 120 innings while posting a 5.44 ERA says simply, “He is not of major league quality.”
I am befuddled as to how any objective Twins fan could defend what is happening in this slot of the starting rotation. One more stat: 173 hits in 120 innings. My goodness.
Eating innings is one thing — if you can post a 4 - 4.50 ERA and a WHIP around 1.4. These numbers that Hernandez (as well as Bonser and Bass, just so you don’t think I’m picking on Senor Smokeless) are not defensible.
If you want to know if our GM is being genuinely honest (rather than playing the angles in negotiation), listen for how he thinks there are no slots for Liriano. Then look real closely at the statistics of Livan and Boof and Bass. These are not defensible players on the vast majority of teams in baseball (most of whom aren’t even in contention. . whilst we are!).
Smith should have said much less than he did. Same for Antony. By speaking, they have shown their position to be a conflicted one. If Liriano gets brought up AFTER July 27th (making him ineligible as a Super 2), then the Twins front office steered this decision for financial reasons (and much as I hate to say it, Frankie’s agent has a point).
I’d have prefered our front office be experienced enough to make no or little comment about this to the media. As we have, we would do well to do what’s right and bring up Frankie before 7/27, adding him to the rotation, moving Livan to long (and likely disastrous) relief, and beginning to shuttle Boof and Bass back to the majors (Korecky and Breslow have earned more innings).
These are what the numbers say. This is why Bill James is a genius. Feel free to take emotional issue with them. But the numbers should be the foundation of your argument. And these numbers shout their conclusions.
T-Mouse, In His Hizzouse
“the only people complaining about livan hernandez are the bandwagon fans that love nick punto and jason tyner. real twins fans know he’s a solid veteran starter who eats innings. he’s always had a high era, thats nothing new. the important thing is he pitches a ton of innings, 8 years in a row with 200+”
This is just funny. Again, I don’t think Livan pitching 200+ innings is a good thing. Also, saying that only people who bash Livan are people who love Punto doesn’t really work both those groups of people are defending two players who hurt the team. It’s a contradiction. Granted, Punto has played well recently and I’ve laid off of him but he still shouldn’t a MLB starter. My point is that your argument doesn’t make sense. It should be “people who are complaining about Livan are the same people who rip on Punto and want to see the Twins make smart baseball decisions.”
Obviously:
- Liriano is ready
- Livan Hernandez is the worst Twins starter
- the Twins don’t like Liriano’s agent
The service time conspiracy can’t be proven, especially when the Twins called up Liriano to start the 2006 season in their bullpen instead of Rochester, even after Franciso got a DWI near the end of Spring Training. At the time I thought this would be the excuse the Twins needed to option Liriano to the minors and delay his service time clock.
I also assume Liriano’s service time clock has been running for the nearly 2 years since he hurt his arm in the majors, not bad considering he spent much of the time recovering away from the club.
Still a contending club for the moment, the Twins should call Francisco up right away, move Hernandez to the bullpen until their young starters go over their innings limits later this summer and they need Livan again.
A number one starter like Liriano? They need him *now*.
Take a look at the individual stats on the Twins pitchers and tell me who we should get rid of? Yes Livan’s numbers may look high, but he leads the staff in wins and is a good veteran influence on the young staff. Let’s pretend we do get in the post season, who do you trust to lead the staff?
but, but, but….. Livan is 9-6 
Patrick…… Key word is arguably. You keep watching him and see if you can say that a mounth from now.
Nfld….
postseason, ya gotta trust the ace: Scott Baker
ya gotta trust Liriano
ya gotta trust Slowey
hell we ran out Boof for game 2 in 06
Take a look at the individual stats on the Twins pitchers and tell me who we should get rid of?
In order of preference:
1. Bass
2. Bonser
then Perkins will move into the pen (where he will be more valuable and traditionally is a better reliever than a starter) and Liriano to the rotation with Livan. Livan’s spits are posted at my 5:14 comment. (http://ww3.startribune.com/blogs/christensen/2008/07/17/agent-says-union-will-investigate-twins-handling-of-liriano/#comment-38064)
if you read them, you’ll see that about half the time he pitches he is great. The problem is that the other half he sucks, but even in the days he is off, he usually stays longer so the pen is not taxed. He has about 15 starts left. I’d take 7 great starts and wins from him along with 8 disasters for the rest of the season.
Why not start a new trend in Baseball: A six-man rotation? Think about it — Why is there such a magic five-person rotation? For many years the magic number was four. I think if a pitcher got an extra day of rest, he’d be even more effective.
Frankie has a legitimate claim. The Twins are famous for keeping guys in the minors to keep them on the cheap. This is exactly what Matt Garza complained about after he was traded. We bring guys p, send them down, set them on the bench, make big promises to them — heck, it is a wonder that the public affairs people even dare make another commercial ala “Ode to Joy” where half of the pitchers that filmed it during Spring Training are not even around anymore (But Nathan Comes in to close the door!!!).
Liriano is ready again for the Big Leagues. Put him in a 6-man rotation, and the first one that falters, well, therere is the bullpen or trade bait.
” but he leads the staff in wins and is a good veteran influence on the young staff.”
This is not a good argument!! Leading the team in wins is meaningless! Meaningless! Livan supporters cannot use this in their argument. If they persist than I’m going to start saying Livan should be traded or moved to the pen because he has a big belly. They have the same amount of relevancy.
Liriano at Rochester:
1IP 1H 0R 0ER 0HR 0BB 1K
Thrylos,
Another split to look at would be who Livan has won against:
Angels (give him credit)
Royals
Royals
Tigers (while struggling)
White Sox (while struggling)
Boston (miracle, but give him credit I guess)
Nationals
Diamondbacks
Indians
What’s worse, is he’s also been completely destroyed by the Royals, Indians, White Sox, and Red Sox at some point during the season too.
Livan’s been nothing short of terrible, and anyone who’s saying otherwise is just buying into the Minnesota media’s attempt to keep fans from being angry about signing a completely washed up hunk of trash.
There’s no excuse to keep Livan in the rotation at this point. I realize they feel his “veteran presence” could benefit in a postseason run. However, if Livan stays in the rotation, there likely won’t BE a postseason, plain and simple. The White Sox are on fire, and every start we put Livan out there instead of Liriano could be costing us a chance to close in on them.
I don’t doubt that he’s been a good mentor to the young staff, and they’ve probably learned from him about recovering from big innings, trusting your stuff, etc. That’s all good, and if the Twins were 9 games out, I’d say leave Liriano down there to make sure he’s 100% healthy and effective when he comes back.
The Twins are 1.5 games out. Bill Smith owes it to the fans to do everything he can to help the Twins win. He needs to give us the best chance of winning we have every single game. Livan Hernandez is just not doing that. There’s no way around that fact.
off the topic, but has there been any more news about Twins being interested in Beltre? I have been out of the loop lately.
Well said, Steve from Fridley!!
Incase you forgot, it isn’t easy recovering from Tommy John surgery. It takes time to get back to form, to retrain the body to do what it once did. If Liriano needs the time in the minors to get where he was, then give it to him. What’s more important? Winning right now or this kid’s career? I think some of you are losing perspective.
“He needs to give us the best chance of winning we have every single game. Livan Hernandez is just not doing that. There’s no way around that fact.”
There is no way that that is a fact.
His W-L is 9-6.
If its a fact, prove it!
Its an opinion, not a fact and it can’t be proven.
White Sox (while struggling)
9IP 9H 1ER 1BB 3K 1HR (at the 9th inning is not really struggling…)
He is not stellar
He is not an ace
Half of the time he is great, half he is awful.
I could live with that over Bass or Bonser who are awful 75% of the time
anyone who uses the argument “he is 9-6″ will not be convinced of anything.
if Liriano struggles tonight, will it be due to the firestorm his agent started?
The Twins called Liriano up early because it was to prove a point, that they wouldn’t hold Liriano down in AAA to prevent him from making super 2.
Liriano struggled, he needed to go to AAA, he’s done what he needs to and the Twins will bring him up the first opportunity that reasonably presents itself.
This does sound like an agent run-amok…
But is also concerning considering a track record of percieved poor communication between the player and the club dating back to his 2006 injury run, the miss of the start of training camp this year, and now filing a greivance…
It doesn’t bode well for a solid long term relationship.
Patrick,
Your stat’s are quite wonderful. I would be far more impressed with your argument IF the playoff and WS participation was determined by ERA. Maybe that is a NEW rule this year, and I was just unaware.
For most of my life, Wins have been the criteria to make the playoffs and WS (until this year I guess).
Liriano career starts and Twins W/L in those starts.
2005 4 starts Liriano 1W 2L Twins 1W 3L
2006 16 starts Liriano 12W 3L Twins 11W 5L (1 Liriano win from bullpen)
2008 3 starts Liriano 0W 3L Twins 0W 3L
Total 23 starts Liriano 13W 8L Twins 12W 11L
Livan in 2008: 20 starts Livan 9W 6L Twins 13W 7L
For the NEW ERA qualification criteria, you obviously win the argument. Under previous WIN qualification criteria. Livan wins hands down. Almost 2/3 wins in Livans starts, just over 50% wins in Liriano starts.
Regards,
2 IP 2 hits 3 SOs 36 pitches
Wow Dragon…post it for all of us to see. I want you to post that Livan Hernandez is a better pitcher than Liriano and is a better asset to this franchise. If you can do that and mean it, congrats.
Yes, typical shor-term thinkers. Get him to be used now and sacrifice his future. SFB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shawn,
I WILL be convinced as soon as WINS are not the criteria for playoffs.
Livan has ALSO been given credit for helping some of the young pups. Might bee worth a win or two who knows.
Liriano, can shore up the starting staff by teaching them ALL how to file grievances.
Regards,
Take numbers out of it:
How many times going into a Livan start since June do you cringe/hope/pray for the best before it begins?
How many times do you swear outloud as he pitches?
When he faced Boston last week, people on ESPN.com and other places said he’d get killed
Vegas had Boston as a 220/100 bet
The computer on ESPN.com had Boston with a 78% chance of winning
I had a stomach ache imagining it
they got crushed 18-5
Dragon, you fail to note that Liriano’s last win came two years ago, before a pretty major injury and significant surgery.
That and the win/loss stat is probably the single worst measure of a pitcher’s performance. Unless you work for ESPN.
A comparison between Livan and Liriano, as far as ability goes, is at least funny (and I’ve been arguing that Livan is not the worse pitcher in the Twins.)
I’d love to see them both on the same roster at the same time, if for no other reason, for Livan to talk to Liriano and make him understand how the politics of the game work and why what his agent did today was stupid, in their native language, so he would learn…
FYI - Liriano is no longer hurt. He has had more time to recover from his surgery than the majority of Tommy John cases. Remember his surgery was done immediately so he could have additional recovery time. His fastball is now back to where it was before the surgery and he is mowing AAA hitters down.
If you think throwing 97 mph fastballs, with his wicked slider is less stressful on his arm throwing it in AAA as opposed to the majors, i just don’t know what to say. He is throwing hard in AAA and is throwing everything he has to get back to the bigs. Don’t pretend he is somehow being protected.
“Yes, typical shor-term thinkers. Get him to be used now and sacrifice his future.”
Or jerk him around now, so his long-term future will be with his NEW team after Free Agency.
Like Johan Whatzizname!
For all of those folks blaming just his agent, Liriano is also known for being a head case. There was a moment last year where Gardenhire had an understanding with him that he was going to stay in Ft. Myers awhile and work out, then when Gardenhire came to the complex the next day, Liriano had taken off back to the Dominican Republic. I’m sure that will endear him to his teammates if he’s somehow successful in essentially sueing his way to the big leagues and forcing a current teammate out. At this point I would move Livan to the bullpen to keep his presence around for the young guys and just risk losing Boof by trying to send him to AAA. At this point Boof is essentially worthless to the team, you can’t carry a roster spot for someone who you can only pitch in a blowout if you are contending.
How many times going into a Livan start since June do you cringe/hope/pray for the best before it begins?
fewer than when I used to see Rincon trying to protect a lead or when I see Bass or Bonser trying to do it now… About the same as when I am seeing Crain trying to protect a lead, I guess.
It’s all relative. Would the Twins be better off with a more reliable starter than Liriano? Yes. But, what is a higher priority? Getting Bass and Bonser out of there, or Liriano?
The Twins are in a quandry on this one. You have four starters who have done reasonably well, all young, none of whom have ever logged close to 200 big league innings. There is Livan, who allows a prodigious number of hits, has a high ERA, but has a winning record and who has never been on the disabled list, and finally the potential ace, Liriano, who has dominated his last three or four starts at Rochester, but up until then had been nothing special since his arm surgery. The club is 1.5 games out, so they need to do all that they can to try to compete and certainly Liriano could help to that end. It just isn’t an easy choice, especially since Hernandez has been somewhat of a mentor to the pitchers and the young Hispanic position players. Almost every suggestion has pitfalls–go to a 6-man rotation? Then what about the bullpen? Go with six there or do you add another pitcher to the roster making thirteen pitchers? Liriano to the bullpen? Is his arm able to handle that stress? Would he be good as an 9th inning guy? Send Slowey to the pen? Or Perkins?
I can almost hear the Twins’ brass, saying “c’mon injury–nothing serious”.
DanS,
if I had to weigh who is more of a head case between Liriano and Gardy in those arguments, I’d say Gardy hands down for the following reasons:
1. He is the ‘boss’ so he needs to make sure that his player understands what he means (which is something that Gardy has a problem doing with foreign players)
2. Liriano is 24 and Gardy is 50something
3. Gardy has a past history of picking up fights with talented players because of his stubbornness (Ortiz, Lohse, Romero, Garza)
The Twins need help in the bullpen not the statring rotation.
Liriano could come up and be a dominant set-up man but how would that benefit him?
Liriano’s future is a number one starter and why mess with him now when he’s making good progress?
Actually, Liriano should feel fortunate that he’s not playing for a big market team that would be willing to toss him into the bullpen and possibly ruin his career.
Bass is the worst pitcher on the team, if they bring up Liriano and put he or Perkins in the pen for a few weeks, that wouls be fine.
Livo would have more value to a team with a poor staff, such as Philly sans todays trade.
If the Twins can trade him for an ok or better prospect, they should.
oh yeah:
3 IP 3 H 3 SO 45 pitches
I think moving Perkins to the pen for the remaining of the year is probably the best option. Sure he deserves to be a starter, but life isn’t always fair. When Livan is gone at the end of the year we move Perkins back to the rotation next year. This is teh best option for this years Twins and it allows Bass to take a trip out of here.
What I think 98% of us agree on is this should be a hell of a staff in 2009.
For those that want to watch Liriano’s start on Gameday, here is a link. One thing I have noticed is he has been down in the zone all day. Just hammering the knees and corners of the plates. His misses are good misses. This is much different then the last time we saw him in the bigs!
javascript:launchGameday(’2008_07_17_noraaa_rocaaa_1′)
Sorry, link to box score…click on the gameday link for gameday.
4 IP 3 H 5 SO 55 pitches
his next turn would be in 5 days… wait it out until then bring him up.
4IP 3hits 0runs and 5k’s
This dude is just so dominate again, it cannot be ignored. I realize why the Twins have waited, but the time is now.
26 scoreless innings
Livan is 7-1 at the Dome and 2-5 on the road…that’s good enough to keep, wishy washy ninny opinions notwithstanding.
Call up Liriano and move one of the starters to the bullpen to set up Nathan for the rest of the season. Livan’s on a 1 year contract, so there’ll be room for whoever to return to the starting rotation next season. After we beat the Brewers in the Flyover World Series.
AaronK,
In 1971, my freshman year of College, my Statistics professor opened the 1st class by making the following statement “Figures NEVER lie, but liars figure”. He then took the rest of the class explaining that the statistics were whatever they were, the manipulation comes/came in the interpretation, analysis and argument.
By pure numbers, one could say Livan has done more for the Twins this year, in the fact the team wins 65% of his starts, than Santana has done for the Mets who have won 53% of his starts, yet has significantly better stats.
The thing that I have long believed is lost in the designer statistics, is that the game is played by human beings rather than computers. With the exception of the Yankees, chemistry is important too most teams winning and impossible to quantify.
Slowey and either Baker or Blackburn (I can’t remember which), when interviewed about their good performances took the effort to give some credit to Livan, THAT IS AN ASSET!!! I took them to be sincere, BUT they were probably FORCED to make those false comments.
So yes, Livan is an asset, particularly considering his current record.
That DOES NOT mean that I completely dismiss Liriano, He struggled in 2005, as should be expected, in 2006 he was in the bullpen and then had a magical 3 months before his injury. I dismiss his starts this year. Liriano might come up and start where he left off in 2006, I seriously doubt it. He has 23 career starts. Baker has a few more, and took several years to finally get it! Slowey and Garza were just as lights out in AAA as Liriano, and they are just at the point of getting it! Blackburn and Perkins have fewer starts, and doing OK.
Considering Liriano’s injury, and the time needed to come back, I personally think currently Livan is the beter option. Should his performance nosedive, ala Ortiz last year, I would change my mind.
One can argue the run support thingy, BUT it is what it is. I submit it probably goes back to the subtle psychology of the team, where they know they have to score tonight.
Regards,
My god, I just don’t think I’m ever going to truly accept the fact that BASEBALL has come to this.
Here you have an organization how everybody who’s anybody damn well knows has unequivocally no motive to keep this young man out of the big leagues other than a genuine desire for FL’s best interests, and the avoidance of a career-ending second arm injury.
This is just hard to fathom.
Even though our starters have been fine, someone going to fade and that’s when it’s time to call up Liriano.
Putting as potential ace in the bullpen is only flirting with disaster.
Injury concerns:
if he can throw 85-100 pitches every 5 days in AAA, why can’t he in the MLB?
Shawn, That is an answer nobody has been able to answer. I have heard the saying he is throwing less stressful innings which makes me laugh. You don’t think he is throwing with fire to get to the big leagues? haha
Will major league teams be required in the future to allow the players’ union to decide each team’s roster?
I think if Liriano ready then they the twins should sign barry bonds, the same reasons for all the other stupid reasons here on this blog
Michael,
we’ll see how this case goes….hope not.
Shawn & Aaron,
The Twins have been on a 75% win tear for just short of 30 games.
I guess we tear that up and MAYBE they go to what? 150% win rate?
Makes perfect sense to change things, they are obviously NOT working currently.
Regards,
to the Dragon:
Thank you! You are dead on target. If one of the SP’s is hurt or is pitching badly for a stretch of time, then it’s time to give FL another look. The guy was great for 3 months 2 yrs ago….at least Scott Erickson was better for longer. And look at his career after he had to learn how to pitch. The point is, noone can guarantee how FL will perform once he’s back. Therefore, the Twins will need a very good reason to give him the chance, and right now, that “good reason” does not exist. Let him pitch in AAA until September if possible.
if Bonds was a Righty i might want him
Dragon, We are currently out of the playoffs, it is clearly working and we don’t need to make any adjustments.
Regards,
Why Liriano? Why not Hunt?
2k per inning, 1.5 hits/9
Let’s bring him up as well.
Regards,
Are we trying to make sure Lirano leaves the Twins as soon as he is able to??? But please whatever you do don’t release Livan he is dominating at the Major League Level! Seriously, the only time Livan wins is when the Twins score a ton of runs or they play somebody horrible. Nice work Mr. Smith aka “The moron who signed Livan, Everett, and Lamb”
ok Dragon: If you are saying the Twins win 75% of the next 30 games i will say…. “Leave Liriano down”
If they win 75% of the rest of the year, they will win the world series….
i am all for them winning the World Series
Aaron,
That’s just as inane as the following. We may well be in the playoff’s without Liriano’s 3 losses.
Both pretty stupid comments, yours and mine.
Regards,
oh yeah,
5 IP 4 H 0 runs 5 SO 64 pitches
Shawn,
I DID NOT say that.
I CANNOT say that Livan will continue at current level.
You CANNOT say Liriano WILL maintain Livan’s level or exceed it.
If you want to make a change for the sake of change, just say it.
I suspect things will work out naturally.
Regards,
I am out
argue away, its all been civil and everyone seems very passionate about the rest of the year.
on the way out:
I want Liriano on the roster…..
the person that has to go can be decided by the Twins
Who cares how many wins Livan Hernandez has? Most of the people throwing Livan’s 9 wins out there were probably also shocked in 2005 when Bartolo Colon won the AL Cy Young because he had more wins, despite Santana being better in all other categories. No one’s saying Colon was actually a better pitcher that year or that he deserved to win over Santana, are they?
You can allow 7 earned runs through 5 innings, and as long as your team puts up 8 or 9 runs, you can walk away with a win.
If you want to get as BASIC as possible, yes, “wins” count in the World Series and Playoffs. But ERA and WHIP are what allows a pitcher to set himself up for a win. Livan’s nine wins are a complete fluke. He’s pitched no better than Ramon Ortiz, but he’s making more money, and we don’t have a veteran like we did last year with Santana and Silva, so they refuse to cut him.
There is no defense for a pitcher who is sporting a 5.44 ERA and leading the Majors in hits allowed. The fact that people even try to defend him astounds me. I didn’t even realize it was possible to buy into the crap that Dick, Bert, Coomer, the rest of the FSN crew, and other Minnesota writers spew out.
People can say we need to be careful with Liriano and not bring him up too soon, but 26 scoreless innings is enough. The kid’s proven himself, and at this point, the only thing they need to be careful of is alienating and angering someone who is hands down the future of this organization. He’s healthy, he’s strong, he’s effective, he’s DOMINANT right now.
Anyone who honestly is chirping about Livan’s nine wins, how can you honestly justify his numbers? Wins, for the most part, are dependent on a pitcher’s offense behind him.
Before getting injured this year, Aaron Harang was 3-9 with a 3.09 ERA at one point. I suppose having only 3 wins and 9 losses, you’d rather have Livan than him too? Puh-leeeeeeeeeeease…
Shawn,
The Twins will be in the playoffs, or not.
I hope the former
Regards,
Hey all,
I’ve been listening to the game on the Red Wings web broadcast. It’s pretty cool, because the announcers are decent and they play music between innings, instead of commercials.
Frankie has been dominant again and through 5IP he has allowed only four hits, no walks and has 5 K’s. He’s thrown 64 pitches, 44 for strikes.
His agent aside, I think it’s time we bring him up. I thought I saw something the last few days (from Antony, Twins Assistant GM? mentioning moving Livan to the bullpen and inserting Frankie in the rotation. That seems like a good move, because you can always move him back, should they need to.
If you want to listen in tonight, the game is on WHTK 1280 in Rochester, NY.
The boxscore is available at:
Ah hell, forget what I just said. Frankie just gave up a run. First one in 26.2 innings. Keep him down!
;*)
Mark
On an unrelated note, the trade value of starting pitchers just took a nose dive with the Blanton trade. Josh Outman, Adrian Cardenas and Matt Spencer (whom the Phillies gave up) are about the equivalent of Zach Ward, Yangervis Solarte and Juan Portes for the Twins… Ouch!
Uh oh, Liriano gave up a run. Better keep him in AAA for another 3 months. One run in your last 27 innings Franny? You can do better than that.
Thrylos,
Cardenas and Outman were ranked as the #2 and #4 prospects in the Phils’ organization coming into the year.
Cardenas is batting .309/.374/.444, and Outman has a 3.20 ERA through 70 innings…
How is that bad value for Blanton? I think Beane did just fine, especially given Blanton’s struggles this season.
(From above in the comments))
Livan’s splits:
In wins (9): ERA 2.26, Op OPS .695
In loses (6): ERA 10.80, Op OPS 1.054
In ND (5): ERA 7.06, Op OPS 1.018
Kind of puts the lie to this quote:
“Livan’s nine wins are a complete fluke. He’s pitched no better than Ramon Ortiz”
Steve,
IF you are addressing my argument, it has little to do with Livans 9 wins, AND EVERYTHING to do with the team winning 65% of his starts. Be it serendipity or magic dust, IF the Twins won 65% of ALL their starters starts, they would be in the playoff and probably win the WS.
Liriano is EXTREMELY effective in AAA. He may or may not be as effective in the Majors. Prior to his injury he had as many career starts as Slowey has now. Slowey is getting better, yet throws a real clinker every so often. Also, Slowey was JUST as lights out as Liriano in AAA.
I cannot predict the future, I only reference the last 4 months.
Regards,
Betcha Livan shuts ‘em down tomorrow night at the Dome. (Not that that will make the hand wringing haters let up or anything)
Steve,
I just put the trade in Twins’ terms. I don’t think that there would be many people out there crying if the Twins lost Ward, Solarte and Portes for anyone… And yes the Phillies farm system is in an extremely sorry state. Most of their teams would not be competitive in a lower division…
Frankie’s stats through six:
80-55
6 hits
7 K’s
0 BB’s
Wings lead 6-1
Clerihew,
I saw those splits, and while they’re fairly impressive on paper, when you take into account that his wins were against the Royals twice, Nationals, Diamondbacks, and Indians… it kind of puts things in perspective.
A lot of players will have great numbers against teams like that.
Here’s some more splits, for those who wanna go that route. Livan Hernandez vs. the AL Central:
49 IP, 69 H, 29 ER, 8 BB, 21 K, 7 HR, 5.32 ERA, 1.57 WHIP
Doesn’t instill high hopes for the second half, if you ask this guy.
On another unrelated note, Santana at Cincinnati:
4IP 6H 5R 5ER 2HR 3BB 2K
thrylos98,
“the equivalent of Zach Ward, Yangervis Solarte and Juan Portes for the Twins”
The Phillies prospects were ranked #2, #4, and #28 by Baseball America and you just called them the equivalent of an unranked (Ward) an unranked (Portes)and one not even mentioned player(Solarte) on a page of about 60 prospects. Was that misleading accidentally or intentionally?
Steve,
So if I get you correct, then the Twins don’t really have 53 wins? The wins against the Nationals count what, 1/3 of a win?
The Yankees of the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s won a bunch of WS by creaming the Washington Senators and the Athletics, and playing .500 against everyone else.
Regards,
Just for the record.
I would like to see Liriano come up, YET I don’t see changing something that is currently working very well.
Time tends to sort these things out.
Regards,
thrylos98,
BTW, Baseball America rated the Twins a C, and the Phillies a C+.
Frankie’s (likely) final line for tonight:
7IP
7 H
1 ER
8 K
0 BB
95-66
BTW, he did this in 87* heat
Not bad, not bad…
There’s a difference between beating a team like the Nationals and beating a team like the Red Sox, Rays, White Sox, Cubs, etc.
Sorry if I look beyond the completely basic “Win-Loss” column when I look at baseball. If you want to look at it on a completely basic, face-value level, go ahead and do so, but you’re missing a great part of the game in doing so. Also, I can assure you that every manager, GM, player, scout, and anyone else in baseball looks at WHO wins come against and how the wins come about.
If all that matters is win-loss record, then why were people knocking down the door to get C.C. Sabathia? He only had 6 wins when he was traded. Man, that guy’s a real chump… can’t believe Milwaukee gave up LaPorta for THAT. Clearly they should’ve dangled him in front of the Twins in hopes to land Livan’s three extra wins.
thrylos98,
Left out a crucial word.
BTW, Baseball America rated the Twins’ prospects a C, and the Phillies’ prospects a C+.
I think Franchise just made his last start in AAA
“Frankie’s (likely) final line for tonight:
7IP
7 H
1 ER
8 K
0 BB
95-66
BTW, he did this in 87* heat”
Livan wouldn’t have given up a fair ball in the same situation. lol
The argument is a non-starter…it will not be Livan who’s spot FL takes. Blackburn and Perkins are quickly getting to a point where their # of IP has to be closely watched.
Of course Hernandez’s numbers are ugly but his value is that he can stay in the game and take a beating w/o it affecting him. He eats innings and this is relative because of all the young, unproven starters we have who will continue to overtax the bullpen. How are they going to react as their innings climb intersects with the playoff race? My advocacy would be to bring up Liriano and move Perkins to the pen (someone wisely mentioned this already).
The problem is that all of candidates to be sent down are out of options: Bass might make it through waivers, Boof will not. Hernandez isn’t going to the bullpen and shouldn’t be released.
Livan is awful, but there is no evidence that Liriano would be any better. AAA stats mean almost nothing.
If the Twins want to use Livan, they should have every right to.
who cares if Bass makes it thru waivers?
For the record, here are Livan’s wins with teams, dates, (opposing starters) and final score
Angels 3/31 (weaver) 3-2
Royals 4/5 (Meche) 6-4
Royals 4/11 (Meche) 5-0
Detroit 5/2 (Galarraga) 11-1
White Sox 5/7 (Buehrle) 13-1
Red Sox 5/12 (Buchholz) 7-3
Nationals 6/17 (Lannan) 2-1
Arizona 6/22 (Webb) 5-3
Cleveland 7/4 (Byrd) 12-3
Draw your own conclusions…
Frankie is still pitching
methinks that Frankie will go for a CG tonight…
How about this? Frankie has gone back out there for the eighth inning. Already has two quick outs!
Wonder if Stu/Stan are trying to tell Gardy and the brass someting.
Inning over! 103 pitches.
mw
“There’s a difference between beating a team like the Nationals and beating a team like the Red Sox, Rays, White Sox, Cubs, etc.”
Yeah, and if you can beat the Lehigh Valley Ironpigs, you can beat anyone.
now 8 inning. only used 8 pitches to 103
oops - sorry Mark
Mike,
You make a good point in noting the danger of an excessive amount of pitches that some of these young guys will throw.
I wouldn’t worry about Baker or Slowey as much as Blackburn and Perkins, I agree. The thing that I think makes it slightly less stressful is how carefully the Twins have managed their young starters’ pitch counts thus far.
Perkins’ injury history could be a point of concern, and another lefty in the pen is always a bonus, so moving him could indeed be very beneficial.
Blackburn’s only about seven starts or so from hitting his innings total from last year, which is a point of concern, agreed.
My thinking is (and I hate saying this, but here goes), even with Hernandez gone, it’s still an option to switch Blackburn/Perkins back to the bullpen and use Boof in a starting role again.
I know he was awful for an extended period of time, but looking at it, during his last terrible stretch, how much worse was he than Livan?
If all you’re looking for is someone to eat innings in that role, I’d rather cut ties with Hernandez, and gamble on our starters holding up. If one struggles greatly, stick Boof back out there, as he’s well underneath his projected innings from last year obviously.
Additionally, no one will question that Bonser is more talented (in terms of his stuff anyway) than Livan. He can get another 9-10 MPH on his fastball, has a very good curve when working, etc. He’s a talented pitcher who just can’t put it together thus far.
I’d personally rather gamble on a rotation of Liriano, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins… and if one collapses, go back to Boof.
I think people forget, Bonser’s really only had five terrible starts this year. And while that’s a lot, Hernandez has had seven completely terrible starts, and two pretty terrible ones.
Boof allowed 4 or more earned runs five times, which is bad. Livan’s done it ten times. If you look at their game logs, I don’t think we’re much worse off having Bonser in there than Hernandez.
I am a little surprised they put liriano back in for the eight, but he did have a quick 1-2-3 inning.
Barrett in for the 9th
The 4 Livan starts where he got a ND.
TampaBay 4/16 (J. Shields) 6-5
@Oakland 4/22 (J. Blanton) 5-4
@ K C 5/28 (Greinke) 9-8
NYYankees 6/2 (Pettitte) 6-5
Only Loss in start where he got ND.
Texas 5/22 (Padilla) 7-8
Regards,
So, now it’s up to the players union who is on the team and who isn’t. I guess the inmates really are running the asylum.
Liriano just finished up yet another solid start.. 8 innings 1 run 0 bb and 8 k’s .. the Twins can’t afford not to bring him up..
Dragon,
the 5/22 game was the one that Bass gave a walk off HR to Hamilton, right?
Wasnt the Tommy John injury and surgery b/c the manager listened to the fans and media and promoted him too fast anyway? I say, keep him down there until he is ready, ready. He is learning pretty valuable lessons and does he want be Mark Pryor or Greg Maddox? Right on about the agent wanting his cash
Bill Smith is not about to let Livan go, so you all can let it go. Smith has made some horrendous free agency pickups-Lamb, Everett, Monroe and is becoming regarded as a real lightweight among GMs, especially after the Santana fiasco when he failed to pull the trigger on the Red Sox offer which included Ellsbury, Lester and others. Smith is quickly on the path to passing up McHale as the worst GM in Minnesota team sports history, so he is praying that Livan pitches well in the second half.
Dragon,
Again, my question:
What does that have to do with Livan? Nothing.
It took 5 runs from the Twins with 2 outs in the top of the 9th for them to beat Greinke and the Royals that day.
Against those pitchers (all are pretty good, especially Shields and Greinke), the Twins could have just as easily put up three or less runs, and Livan could’ve suffered the loss.
He has nothing to do with how the Twins’ offense performed that day. You hit the nail on the head when you said “serendipity or magic dust” a few posts back.
The Twins offense isn’t any more motivated to score runs for Hernandez than anyone else; it’s just worked out for him in that sense.
I’m not trying to sound like a jackass or anything to you, and I respect the fact that you want Livan in the rotation, but I can’t understand your reasoning behind it at all. Your defense of him has nothing to do with Livan himself.
thrylos,
Not knockoff since it was at home.
Regards,
Twins fan since ‘61,
“especially after the Santana fiasco when he failed to pull the trigger on the Red Sox offer which included Ellsbury, Lester and others.”
Lester and Ellsbury were NEVER in the same trade package.
If you are going to blast someone, try to mix in some truth occasionally.
Hmmm, Ricky Barrett gave up 3 runs and transformed a 7-1 9th inning lead into a 1 out save opportunity for Korecky…and he converted.
Meanwhile, Kyle Lohse (11-2 in 20 starts) has a 3-2 lead over Jake Peavy as the Cardinals bat int the 5th in St Louis.
Speaking of Korecky… with all the talk about need another late inning arm, I wouldn’t mind having him back up here…
Hey Twins fan since ‘61
If you’ve indeed been a fan that long, I’d think you’d have less of a knee-jerk reaction than that. My goodness, you must’ve been a complete basket case in the 90’s or did you not follow during those years?
I’m not a huge fan of Billy Smith, but he’s hardly a horrible GM. I liked TR a lot (with good reason) but he did sign Ponson, Ortiz, Ford, LeCroy and other dead weight.
Baseball, as you know, is about making adjustments. During the game, after the game and with the roster.
I think we’ll eventually find out that the Santana trade wasn’t all that uneven. As you know, we have to give it proper time to evaluate. Remember the Frankie V and Knoblauch trades? People were screaming and NY fans rejoicing. When it was all said and done, it was pretty clear we “won” both those trades.
To be the “worst GM in Minnesota team sports history” the team should actually not be good.
Look at the standings in tomorrow’s paper. You’ll find the only ONE team (Cubs) in the NL with a better record than the Twins and that we’re only FOUR games from having the BEST RECORD IN BASEBALL.
Settle down and enjoy it a little. Wow.
Mark
MarkW,
Four letters:
A-M-E-N.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Steve,
Your answer may be that I halucinate well
Actually, I value more than mere stats. The psychological/sociological aspects of groups and teams.
For whatever reason, the team wins as a 65% clip when he pitches.
Throw him to the curb, and Baker would be the most experienced starter. I don’t like that one bit. I love Baker, but it would be like the blind leading the blind.
Finally, I find it difficult to understand how messing with a hot streak makes sense.
With this agent thing, IF the Twins bring Liriano up quickly, I thinks the interpersonal dynamics will be interesting. I suspect it won’t be all positive.
IF, championships were determined on talent alone, the Yankees would probably have 25 or 30 more and the Twins would have ZERO.
Regards,
Thinking about it more, makes sound financial sense as it could net him 1 million more. Not that he is frustrated (he should be, if not you have to worry), but his agent is earning the cash in making sure Liriano is paid what is legally his due.
Dragon,
Actually, once Baker gets the requisite number of IP, he’ll be at or near the top 10 in the AL in pretty much every rate stat that matters. I would take Scott Baker over Livan Hernandez literally EVERY time, if asked.
I have to echo what Steve is saying. I think you’re confusing “winning” with “putting the team in a position to win”. There is a difference.
. You’ll find the only ONE team (Cubs) in the NL with a better record than the Twins and that we’re only FOUR games from having the BEST RECORD IN BASEBALL
Agreed, but still, if the season ended today, the Twins would not make the post season. THAT is the problem…
Bill Smith is a worse GM than Kevin Mchale? Did I miss something?
Bass or Bonser will be moved off the team to make room for Liriano, Bass by being sent down, or Boof via a trade.
Of the six starters, one of them will have to move to the pen. It will not be Baker or Blackburn. Perkins has worked out of the pen before, but I think Livan is the proper choice. I think Slowey and Perkins are both on track to be starters and the team won’t screw with them by changing their rolls now.
Livan can keep having his positive influence on the staff from the pen. he is an adult. He can handle the move. And if Slowey or Perk faulters or one of the others (including Liriano) is injured, Livan is ready to fill in.
Jason,
and who was that guy who traded the house for Herschel Walker?
Put another way.
If I went out and pitched a game against batters, I would understandably give up runs by the metric tonne. Say I gave up 400 in a 9 inning game. Let’s also say that my batters behind me managed to score 401 behind me. Giving me a 401-400 win.
Say that, next game, the pitch for our team goes out and throws a no hitter, but an error scores a run (unearned), and this time, the batters are shut out.
Did I REALLY pitch a better game than the guy who pitched the next day??
Liriano will have to wait his turn. Livan leads a good pitching staff in wins and innings pitched, and the team is on fire. Why make a change to please one player? Why make any changes right now?
Liriano’s time will come, I am glad he is getting his ability and confidence back, but his personal agenda cannot be more important than the team.
Thrylos Good point. Worst GM in MN sports history sure has a lot of competition. Bill Smith in the competition would be like having Span in for the batting title- not enough abats…
Here is a tidbit about Perkins:
As a starter:
2008 Twins: 4.14 ERA 1.455 WHIP
2008 Red Wings: 2.97 ERA 1.41 WHIP
2007 (several MiLB levels): 6.52 ERA 1.50 WHIP
2006 (New Britain and Rochester): 3.87 ERA 1.36 WHIP
As a reliever
2007 Twins: 3.14 ERA 1.221 WHIP
2006 Twins: 1.59 ERA 0.529 WHIP (6 innings or so)
I think that he is better suited to a reliever role in the majors…
ok, enough negativity
who is the best GM in Minessota sports history? And why? And what happened to him (and why?)
make that Minnesota, duh!
Nibbish,
I was not demeaning Baker. I love him.
I remember not that long ago, he was the one everyone wanted to kick to the curb. I wasn’t one of those far sighted individuals. BUT, stats at the time, proved he was worthless.
I realize that actual wins are not very important, and being in a position to win is far more important.
I guess the theoretical best chance to win is more important than the actual record.
Regards,
I guess the theoretical best chance to win is more important than the actual record.
Not quite, but something is missing in these mass arguments where whole season stats are compared in a wholesale manner:
Baseball is a game of situations. And performing well in some situations as a pitcher where the other team has a high probability of having an adverse result or closing the door in key situations is extremely important. Here are some stat comparison for this year’s Twins’ pitchers:
Opponent OPS with 3 balls:
Reyes: .658
Slowey: 796
Nathan: .827
Hernandez: .836
Crain: .888
Guerrier: 1.051
Perkins: 1.084
Bonser: 1.087
Blackburn: 1.092
Bresslow: 1.255
Baker: 1.260
Rincon: 1.411
Bass: 1.816
Opponent OPS with 2 stikes:
Nathan: .297 (insane)
Breslow: .428
Baker: .441
Guerrier: .480
Rincon: .549
Slowey: .556
Bonser: .558
Crain: .579
Hernandez: .585
Blackburn: .587
Perkins: .659
Bass .745
Reyes: .852
Again, make your own conclusions, but look where Hernandez stands vs. Perkins (e.g.) and where Bass stands vs. the team…
I haven’t read all of the posts, so maybe this has already been said, but the Twins were 8-2 in Livan’s first 10 starts and 5-5 in his last 10. Whatever magic he had is starting to wear off.
Tonight’s line for Liriano
Rochester
Player IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Liriano (W, 8-2) 8.0 7 1 1 0 8 0 3.34
I am not radical but seriously! What more does the guy have to do. They have to bring him up and demote someone to the bullpen or trade Livo. I feel Livo is doing a better job than his ERA/WHIP show (Quality starts is good) and I think he has been a great mentor for our young staff so I’m not a hater but it is time to get Liriano up here.
His agent might be a pushy character, but it is true Liriano has nothing to prove in AAA and the Twins must fina a way to bring him up, even as a relief pitcher for the time being. As to the different stats about Livan Hernandez, here is my take: in the first 8-10 games, as a newcomer to the league, the hitters were deceived and fooled by his change of speeds, until the coaching staff caught up with his way of pitching. In his last ten starts, he has, more often than not, been hit pretty good. He is doing a little better at home than away, but it is clear he is not going to start for the Twins next year. My guess is Mr. Smith will have to make a move soon if we continue to contend, and either cut him off, or use him as a spot atarter.
Bonser needs to be traded. There are alot of NL teams that are desparate for pitching and he will bring more back than he is worth right now.
I’m betting that since the Twins are probably looking to make a deal for a RH 3B and a setup reliever, they’ll wait until after the trading deadline to bring Liriano up since it can minimize th number of roster moves. A trade or trades may clear up roster spaces, determine who gets cut (Lamb? Boof?), etc. But I’m not holding my breath that the Twins actually do make any kind of a deal.
Liriano could use a few more starts in AAA. He needs to work on throwing all of his pitches for strikes.
it is true Liriano has nothing to prove in AAA and the Twins must find a way to bring him up
Agreed. And I want the Twins to bring Liriano up.
Also, the following are true
Hughes has nothing to prove in AA
Revere has nothing to prove in Beloit
Delaney has nothing to prove in AA
Slama has nothing to prove in Ft. Myers
Harrington has nothing to prove in Elizabethton
Morales has nothing to prove in Elizabethton
Ruiz has nothing to prove in AAA
Tolleson has nothing to prove in AA
Waltenbury has nothing to prove in Elizabethton
McCardell has nothing to prove in Beloit
Vais has nothing to prove in Ft. Myers
and so on…
you have to look at it with an organizational point of view
sorry about the bad HTML above
What do you suppose an aged pitcher who’s a free agent after this season is worth on the trade market? Not very much. So long as the Twins are in the race, Livan belongs. If they fall out of contention, it might be worth it to trade him off to a contender for office furniture or an outside chance prospect. Ditching him while the team is in contention is such a low percentage play that it’s only entertained by belligerent natured folk, here killing time waiting for the football season to start.
If the team really really has to part with someone to make room, it oughta aim higher, throw one of the young pitchers out there for someone of like value in return. Shopping Livan is like trying to sell a well used car tire.
Bring up Frankie Now, #@%&! He threw another 8 strong innings tonight. No walks! Here’s the irony,…Livan’s salary is a sunk cost. Trade him (for a nobody) just to dump his remaining salary and the team would save more than enough to cover Liriano’s higher salary for 2009. And, the team would stand a chance this year. Oh well, at least they didn’t pay Carlos Silva $48 million. Ouch!
While I look forward to, and hope, the Francisco Lariano will find his nitch, it is his agent causing this problem. The Twins have a history of making sure their players are healthy and able to perform at a top notch level. Francisco’s agent is going to hurt this client of his in the long run. Screw his agent, let’s do what is best for FL and the TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about a 6 man rotation?
HAVE FUN !!! GO TWINS !!!
The Twins have a history of making sure their players are healthy
Other than the current finger issues (Cuddyer, Punto, Casilla etc), the following pitchers had major injuries that took them about a year to recover: Neshek, Liriano, Crain, Balfour, Perkins, Reyes.
So I would not say that the Twins really take care of their players as far as injury prevention goes…
All these great thinkers should just sit back and enjoy whats going on
They have to bring him up and demote someone to the bullpen or trade Livo.
They can’t just bring him up. They need to make a roster move.
And the funny thing about trades…you need another team to say “Okay let’s do it.”
Roid Boy is correct about Liriano. Eight innings, gave up one run and two hits.But that’s minor league ball. Awful hard to be thrown into the mix in the heat of a pennant race. Yep, you read that right, a pennant race. The best thing for Francisco is keep working, put up impressive numbers, break camp with the big club next spring, win 20 games, gather some Cy Young votes and get a contract for more money than he ever envisioned even in his wildest dreams. Anybody think all that is impossible?
I didn’t think so.
Speaking of pressure - then his agent drops a bomb! Ban this bozo! Or realistically Francisco, fire him!
Gardy fires back: