Twins update: Trade winds, Liriano, Everett
Posted on July 24th, 2008 – 2:59 PMBy Joe Christensen
A few Twins tidbits for your off-day reading pleasure:
(*) I spoke to several baseball officials today but continue to pick up very little trade buzz around the Twins. One week to the non-waiver trade deadline, and if I had to guess now, I’d say they won’t make a deal.
A late-inning relief specialist seems like the most pressing need, especially after the dismal showing in New York, but the Twins are more likely to address their pitching concerns from within.
With Francisco Liriano knocking on the door at Class AAA, they have an obvious move pending, though I’m told it won’t happen by Friday’s series opener in Cleveland.
In coming days, I’d look for the Twins to add Liriano to their major league squad, with Nick Blackburn, Glen Perkins or Liriano going to the bullpen.
Twins GM Bill Smith was non-committal today when I asked him if the New York series prompted the team to re-open discussions of moving Liriano to the big league bullpen.
“Whether it’s a possibility or not, we believe his long-term future is as a starter,” Smith said.
(*) The Twins would love to add a righthanded hitter who can play third base, but they haven’t found one available for the right price.
Adrian Beltre? Garrett Atkins? Casey Blake? Bill Hall? They’ve checked, and it’s their feeling teams are either asking too much (two or three prospects in some cases) or aren’t making those players available.
(*) Adam Everett went 1-for-3 with the go-ahead single for Class AAA Rochester today in a rain-shortened 6-1 victory over Toledo. Everett will play five games with Rochester — batting second and playing shortstop.
Everett’s 20-game rehab window expires Monday, so the Twins must either move him to the big league roster, trade him, designate him for assignment or keep him on the disabled list (with Everett’s permission).
“We’ll evaluate it after Monday,” Smith said. “He’s making good progress. I’m pleased. The trainers’ reports have been positive. So we’ll see where he’s at after Monday.”
Note: I’m heading to Cleveland, so check back here Friday afternoon for lineups and other updates.
243 Responses to "Twins update: Trade winds, Liriano, Everett"
My guess on Liriano is they will wait until Sunday to see how the staff does before a Monday start.
MLBtraderumors says the Rangers are looking for young pitching for Blaylock. How about Perkins, Lamb and Boof for Blaylock and Padilla(who MLBtraderumors says is available). If Boof isn’t adequate sub Duensing.
Espn says they checked up on Hank Blalock too.
Yeah, the Rangers are desperate for pitching. You’d think they’d be one of the few teams who would even think about taking Boof.
i know cuddy doesn’t like to play third but maybe he needs to if he wants to stay here
Padilla scares me a little bit… seems totally hit or miss.
espn-jason stark says:
“• Yo Adrian: Despite reports that the Twins have given up on their attempts to pry Adrian Beltre away from Seattle, we’re hearing those discussions are far from dead. The Twins’ No. 1 trading priority is to upgrade at third base. One team that reportedly has packed it in on Beltre is the Dodgers, after they learned that Beltre’s no-trade list specifically blocks his return to Chavez Ravine.
• Hammering Hank: Elsewhere on the third-base market, it looks as if activity is finally picking up on Texas’ Hank Blalock, now that he’s actually played five games in a row. The Twins, Giants and Dodgers are all believed to have some level of interest. And Blalock doesn’t have to be a rent-a-player. There’s a $6.2-million club option on him for next year.
But the Rangers want a decent young player — and preferably an arm — back. “This is not a giveaway deal,” said an official of one team that spoke with them. “This is not a Ray Durham situation.”
i wouldn’t give to much for blalock, certainly not perkins, he only played 50+ gms last yr and about 30 so far this yr, i think we went through the dl torture with ron-dl-white before.
maybe swarzak, manship or mulvey straight up.
Thanks Mr Polhad! You said that if the new stadium gets publicly funded, that you would have the resources to add some quality players. Look dude, we ARE in the playoff picture and i’m sure that you will do nothing! How does it feel to be a lair?
The guy is in his prime at 27 right now, this isn’t exactly a rondell white situation. He’s ‘played 5 games in a row’ now as Stark points out. I think it’d be worth giving him a chance if they thought he could be had. His power has certainly dropped off since he had 110 RBI and 32 HR in 2004, and coming to the weak offensive Twins at the pitching friendly dome wouldn’t help that surely, but he is younger than Beltre and its not like he only had one good offensive year like Beltre. Blalocks numbers have been decent in each of the 4 full seasons he’s played. I think the Twins would get a lot more production out of him at 3rd than whatever combination of punto/buscher/lamb they are using now.
i thought a lair was similar to a bat cave
Blalock is the next washed up Phil Nevin. We all know that the Twins will at best pick up a spare. No one wants Lamb and Everett and that’s who they want to jetison.
One of the Dodger 3b are available, most likely Andy LaRoche.
All the negativity in this town….is warranted.
Who goes to the pen? Blackburn, Perkins or Franchise? I say Blackburn, although a lefty is needed.
The Twins play well in the princess league otherwise known as the American League Central. When it comes to playing say, NY or Boston, we are the scared little child sucking his thumb hoping that the big scary monster doesn’t come out of the closet or out from under the bed. We still need some help with another big hitter. A right handed big hitter. Not sure the market is overflowing with those right now, so the little team that could, will have to be content closing there eyes tightly and whispering to themselves, “please go away scary monster, please go away”
Uggh! I’d blocked Phil Nevin our of my head. Now he’s back! Make it go away!
Blalock is hitting only .265 with 4 HR and 11RBI… what a waste… dont do it
Hmmm…could Liriano be called up in time to start in someone’s place on Monday or Tuesday in our now huge series against the ChiSox?
Well you know they aren’t going to spend what Seattle wants for Beltre, especially with the new GM in there and the way Seattle got screwed on everything they did during the offseason.
Don’t want Blalock - overrated. A Kubel-esque bat and questionable defense. I’d love Casey Blake to ocrrect a mistake made several years ago.
well if they can’t get beltre i guess getting everett back to hit behind morneau would be the next best thing.
Is it possible to trade away A.J. Pierzinski again? We got so much for him it would be nice to get rid of him two, three, maybe a dozen times!
Everybody is clamoring for the likes of Blalock, Beltre or Casey Blake? Is this seriously how bad things have gotten with Twins fans?
None of them are worth what it will take to get them and only Beltre is an improvement over Brian Buscher, and not much of one at that.
You need my ‘87 Series home run hitting prowess. I’ll sign for the league minimum (and won’t flip my bat).
We have a two right handed hitting 3rd basemen, Cuddy and Harris. I kid. We really should trade Boof and Lamb, though, neither have a future here anymore. Unfortunately, Span and Cuddy are our only expendible players that anyone would actually want.
howabout if Gardy starts a 6-man rotation? that way he can conserve on our young arms (something i’ve heard we are famous for doing) - everybody will be well-rested. why would you send Blackburn to the pen? he’s on the shortlist for runner-up for AL rookie of the year. start Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Perkins, Livan, & Liriano.
of course, everybody’s gonna have to throw into the 8th inning…
Memo to Joe Christensen - wasting your time “reporting” that the Twins are not looking to make a move is similar to reporting it’s going to snow in the winter. Please spend your time on something else or find a different team to write about that actually makes an occasional big move for the stretch run.
Well nothing in this story surprises me in the least. The twins can’t even give Bonsor away or Hernandez or Lamb or anyone else Smith thinks he would like to unload.When we sign these players one thing is for sure, we can’t get rid of them when we have to. So no big trade, that sounds usual for this club. Trade rumors are flying all over the place and it looks like the twins are not going to in on any of them even if they become a reality. I hope the next GM for this team comes from outside the organization rather than fron within.
cuddy is on the dl and can’t be traded, the way gomez has slumped i’m not in favor of trading span he may end up being our regular cf.
i guess that i’d ? the beltre isn’t much of an improvement over buscher. gold glove, ave. 20+ hr’s a yr. buscher has a hard time throwing the ball to first base when he does catch it.
without somebody with a little scare in their bat morneau won’t see many good pitches the rest of the yr.
Tom, you spelled your name wrong. 
I just don’t understand why EVERYONE can’t see where to put Liriano. He replaces Livan. Of Course he Twins won’t do the right thing, but Livan has no business on the Twins or any other MLB roster. The W/L record is irrelavent, his stats are historically terrible. If he didn’t win a WS MVP 11 years ago he would have been cut long ago. If slowey/Perkins /Balckburn had his stats would they be pitching in the bigs?? No Chance.
I agree with all mr negativity wrote. I must add it begins with the fsn play-by-play commentaters.Everytime we play the D Yankees they bow and genuflect and slobber all over themselves with praise for them. And speaking of the fsn announcers they know how to manipulate the result of Twin player errors. If it happens to one of their fair haired boys it is immediately forgotten. When it happens to anyone else it is magnified as the play that lost the game.
i think there are 30 teams and for 29 other teams liriano would be pitching right now and livan wouldn’t be.
Are you kidding? Perk and Blackburn have more than earned their spots in the starting rotation? A few missteps and now they’re demoted? How about sending Livan down? It’s clear that a “veteran presence” in the lineup hasn’t helped us (see Ponson, Ortiz…) of late.
Blalock is hitting only .265 with 4 HR and 11RBI… what a waste… dont do it
Blalock has only had about 100 at bats so far this year. That might account for the low HR and RBI numbers?
What’s wrong with having Cuddy be the DH against lefties when he returns (providing he’s healthy). If he’s healthy he is a much better hitter than the Twins would get in a trade PU. Kubel DH for R’s, Cuddy for L’s and keep Span in Right. Cuddy’s contract is not the issue, using him the best possible way is.
Wow what a shock the Twins arent going to make any big moves for a power hitting 3b. Beltre would be a huge upgrade from Busher a 20 homer guy with a great glove would be awesome but carl needs to save his money. This teams front office will never do what it takes to go be a championship team because every year they refuse to spend money just once trading away some prospects for a power hitter would be nice.
Amy, Moving Perk or Blackburn or whoever to the bullpen will just be temporary..maybe through the end of this season. Sheesh, simmer down! It’s for the good of the team AND their young arm. It’s not a demotion. It’s called being a team player.
getting everett back would be the next best thing? Mr. perennial .200 avg?
“I just don’t understand why EVERYONE can’t see where to put Liriano. He replaces Livan. Of Course he Twins won’t do the right thing, but Livan has no business on the Twins or any other MLB roster. The W/L record is irrelavent, his stats are historically terrible. If he didn’t win a WS MVP 11 years ago he would have been cut long ago. If slowey/Perkins /Balckburn had his stats would they be pitching in the bigs?? No Chance.”
And you can’t answer why that is? Livan has what they call a track record. He was brought here to eat innings. He’s doing that AND he has managed to win 10 games. If you hadn’t noticed there is a disturbing trend emerging where our young starters are lights out until the 5th or 6th inning and then get shelled. It’s possible the young arms are not holding up. Livan’s will for the duration. So let’s go with the prevailing fan wisdom and drop the only guy who can pitch through 7 consistently and bring up another young arm that had Tommy John. this stuff isn’t that hard.
IowaTwin….
He has 4 full seasons without significant time missed b/c of injury and he has put up around 25 HR/90-100 RBI each of those seasons… beats Kubel if you ask me. Half the price of Beltre too (maybe half the defense too but whatever cats outta the bag on that one with this team this year.)
What in the world is a veteran presence anyways? I have no idea. Livan pitches it and it gets whalloped. I don’t think the Batter gives a rats A** that the pitcher is 21 years old or 34. What could our younger pitchers be getting from Livan other than fearing for their lives sitting in the bullpen from the laser shots going right over their head.
We all know a pitcher’s W-L record is way overrated. If a pitcher get’s tons of run support he will get a win even though he may give up 6 earned runs a start. ERA is a much better indicator of a pitcher. Livan’s is big. It’s 5.29. It’s worse than Bass’ ERA!
Livan’s track record shows that he has been terrible for the past few years. He also is currently one of the worst starters in baseball. It’s not hard to find someone to throw innings if you don’t care how many runs they give up.
Anyone else think Liriano just hasn’t earned enough veteran presence points? He’s not ready, he doesn’t take command like a good veteran should, think Bartlett ala 2 years ago. He doesn’t play good enough defense like Morneau in comparison to Doug M. HE’S NOT READY! Livan and his 60,0000 XP >>>>> Liriano.
what the hell do the twins expect?? teams to give up solid, all star caliber players with power for nothing…good god. bill smith get in the real world and realize your only bill smith and not the next baseball god…..figure out a way to make the trade, that your pennant contending team desperately needs and deserves or just step the hell away and let a real baseball man do the effen job….so tired of always hearing, they want too much…ya gotta pay to play bill s….welcome to the big leagues…
Mj1…yes!!! clap clap clap.
Bill Smith is not a good GM right now maybe he can get better.If he follows Terry Ryans plan by not making the trades at the trade deadline he will not last long here….
Plunkton,
While ERA is a better indicator, Livan hasn’t gotten the run support the games that he has won. Livan either pitches really well or really really bad.
His ERA in games that he has won is sub-3. Also in most of the games he has been terrible in, he still managed to go six innings in most of them. In his 21 starts he has gone 6+ in 16 of them.
IowaTwin….You must be kidding. Look it up, Livan’s stats are on track to be the most futile in the history of the game. BAA, WHIP, every real stat that measures pitching performance. An innings eater? We have a whole bunch of bullpen pitchers that are less futile that can ‘Eat Innings’. That is the worst agruement. No, I stand corrected, the track record is the worst…When was Livan’s last effective year?
Did any one else cringe last Sat night when the Twins ran up 14 runs on the rangers. Their history, when they run up double digit runs in a game, is that for the next week they can’t find their butt with either hand on offense. Sure as h_ll, in the following 4 games they have managed to score a grand total of 7 runs. Gardy has sited the mental errors on defense that killed them. The fact is that their complete lack of offense is what did them in over those 4 games.
DG
If they make a “trade” it will be bringing Liriano up, bringing Everett up when he is ready and sending two players down to AAA. That will be our ‘big trades’.
Getting Liriano is just like making a trade. Where’s Rondell White when you need him too?
Since Liriano is the only one sans Baker on the staff who has shown traces of actually being dominate should we care who they trade?
No.
i dunno - i guess innings must be pretty filling, ’cause all the pitchers with a reputation of eating innings are pretty hefty - Sabathia, Livan - hey, wasn’t that what they said about Silva, too?
mmm, innings….
yeah, i guess the Twins’ young arms are just a little too thin to be eating innings yet.
Joe, no indication that Slowey may be the one demoted to the bullpen? I think he’s been worse than Blackburn or Perkins.
DG, good point. I actually said that to a friend. I don’t know the ‘actual stats’ to back me up, but when the Twins explode for runs in a game, prepare for a losing streak. The first couple games in NY, the Twins should have lit those pitchers up and they came up flat. Oh well, they will get back hitting on Sat. Friday will tough, LEE vs Livan….Yuk.
Evets, gobble, Amy, you’re all brilliant. The only move to make is unload Livan and put Liriano in the rotation. Really, who cares if we have to eat the remaining $2 million either. We’re already $25 mil below what anyone thought we’d be this year.
everett may only hit in the low .200 but his power #’s will scare the other team into never walking the big canuck. how has punto done since coming back? maybe there isn’t a place for everett.
David, Silva is a great example of an ‘innings eater’. Did anyone here ever think he would be effective in Seattle? When the first accolade they say about you when your a pitcher is that you eat innings, your on your 9th live.
From BS’s comment, it doesnt sound as if Twins’ mgmt is certain where Liriano will fit in when they do bring him up. His addition to to the pitching staff will be the single largest move they make this season. So I hope they get it right. I sure dont want them trading for Hank Blalock. He adds nothing that isnt already on the roster. I dont see where one RH bat, even with some HR power, is going to help that much. There are too many holes right now to believe one RH bat is going to be the difference maker in the division. They need more consistent offense from the CF position, and more power (2b’s and gappers, not just HR’s) from the corner OF’s and 3B.One guy is not going to fix this.
everett’s ‘power numbers’ will ’scare’ the other team into never walking JM? He has never hit more than 11 home runs or 59 RBI in a season and has never had a SLG AVG over 385. I don’t think he’s ’scaring’ anybody. And those numbers were all from 4 years ago. He’s had nothing even close to that since. And he’s 31 now. The Twins put him on the team for his glove and a hope and a prayer that he could at least put up replacement level offensive numbers but that clearly has not been the case for this year or the last few years.
justin it’s called sarcasm!!!
swing and a miss on that sarcasm pitch
Lala, you are right, the three of us are brillant. Additionally, you are right on eating the contract. I have been a Twins fan for over 30 years. Twin ownership over that time have completely conditioned it’s fan base to accept that they are on a budget, everyone just accepts that year after year. This brainwashing wouldn’t fly in NY, CHI, Bos or STL for that matter. I know that revenue is less here than those examples, but so what? After 30 years of my financial support, I don’t want to here about their budget.
I still can’t believe people say Beltre wouldn’t be an improvement over Buscher…
2008 Road Splits: .296/.366/.475
2007: .288/.320/.538
2006: .283/.343/.462
2008 Splits against LHP: .362/.462/.540
2007: .280./.338/.554
2006: .280/.351/.462
And Gold Glove defense on top of that? How is that not worth making a move? I don’t want to see one of the starters go, but they won’t win with this team…
Geeze, where’d all these Viking blog style commenters come out of the woodwork?
“Look it up, Livan’s stats are on track to be the most futile in the history of the game.”
This is one of the funniest things I’ve read in a long time. I think you need a bigger baseball encyclopedia if you think Livan’s year this year is among the worst ever. LOL
Cleveland and Detroit were suppose to win 100 games. There are no guarantees in baseball, yet the Twins Decision Makes act like 2010 it’ll “magically happen.” I say we’re in the race in 2008–play like there is no tomorrow. The team may be aligned right in 2010 (new stadium, young players), but the game bites you–2010 may bring injuries. OPEN UP AND DO SOMETHING!
This is one of the funniest things I’ve read in a long time. I think you need a bigger baseball encyclopedia if you think Livan’s year this year is among the worst ever. LOL
This is one of the saddest things I’ve read in a long time:
127 IP
178 Hits
47 SO
1.58 WHIP
.335 BAA
5.29 ERA
This place is fun.
To make you all happy.
Trade #1 Morneau, Baker & Perkins for Beltre
Trade #2 Slowey, Mauer & Blackburn for Blalock.
Solves a couple of problem. Get the best 3B & 1B in the Major Leagues. Opens up SP slots for Liriano, since he is “GOD” and can pitch everyday anyway.
Regards,
Oops…forgot. Sign each to $50 mil per year to take care of salary complaints.
Regards,
Trade Liriano now. His stock is up and his fastball is down. Trade him while he is tearing up Triple A.
Let me get this straight, Joey — the Twins can’t make room in their rotation for a player with ace-level stuff like Liriano, yet they’re afraid to give up young pitching to add Beltre?
Front office = FAIL
His fastball is down? What happened to the mid-90s reported earlier this week?
Hold Liriano. Trade one of Perkins/Blackburn/Slowey and a prospect for Beltre.
Evets, You are absolutely dead on. The Twins front office has pulled a “Manchurian Candidate” and brain washed the fan base into thinking we just can’t keep up with the Jones’s.
The fact is they can spend more money than we could ever dream of. There are plenty of examples of small market teams spending on free agents. Some with decent to good results, some with toilet results. Teams such as Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland, Seattle etc. prove it’s possible. The problem is that the Twin’s are owned by a banker who spends his money on the team using the banking model.
DG
Dragon, let’s get real: no GM would accept those trades. Throw in Delmon Young on your first offer and Gomez on your second and you might get a nibble.
I used to contribute to the Twins blogs quite a bit. I put myself on a two year ban to lower my blood pressure. I had my physical Monday and I was at 120 over 75. So I lifted the ban.
Nice timing, Evets. 200 yet? See you next Feb.
Manchurian canditate is a good reference. I won’t go into this subject because it’s pointless. But I love the fact that an owner buys a team and then acts helpless beacuse it’s business model is poor. What other private business does this and gets away with it? It’s a slap in the face of their core demographic. I love the Twins and they do a lot of things well but I am so bored with their small market act. Anyways, I refuse to let it bother me anymore, it’s not worth the aggravation.
KP,
Thanks for the help. I haven’t got this ridiculous trade stuff down yet
Regards,
Evets,
Buy the team.
Then I can complain when you don’t have a $500 mil payroll.
Regards,
Dragon, if wins are the only way to judge a pitcher, and ERA and other stats are meaningless, how do you judge the effectiveness of a hitter (since they don’t have wins and losses)?
I assume you thought Baker sucked the other day, since he lost.
Dragon,
I can’t beleive I’m responding to you after reading a couple of your posts, but I will because I hear that response by others. Pohlad is an excellent banker, he has every right to being rich. He’s a poor owner. I will give him credit for putting good people in place in his organization, but that’s it. He’s the richest owner in baseball and he tried to contract the team….and I need to stop right now….
Actually Mike, I like what the current rotation has been doing. I think just junking someone so “GOD” can come up has it’s own potential clubhouse problems. IF, you’re going to make that move, junk a 2nd because “Shooter” Hunt has been better than “GOD” (since it seems, the level of competition anihilated is not really relevant).
Stats wise Livan is awful, YET the team wins 2/3 of his starts. AND, several of the young pups credit him with helping them learn their craft.
I love Baker (and did a year+ ago, when most everyone else had him ticketed for oblivion), AND the team’s offense seems to take a day off when he pitches.
I happen to think the difference is psychological. Not necessarily consciously, but more like we need to score runs today. Or, Baker’s got in the bag so we don’t have to worry.
I prefer 9-8 wins to 0-1 losses, that may be a bizarre concept, but currently style points aren’t worth crap.
Just for the record, a pitchers w-l record is not important, the team record in his starts, IMHO is important.
Hitting is a horse of a different color. I’ll have a couple of Guiness and reply later.
Regards,
Why in the world do you want Blaylock and pick up yet another left handed bat? Are we trying to set a major league record for fewest right handed batters? Quit screwing around and trade for Garrett Atkins! Bill Smith could have had him earlier this year for either Garza or Slowey but refused to pull the trigger. Colorado needs pitchers, ship them Hernandez and Bonser and slip Liriano in to the #2 slot in the rotation.
Smith is an idiot. Everett, Lamb, Monroe, Gomez instead of Ellsbury. He is WORSE than Kevin McFail.
Knowing the Twins, they’ll go for the low-budget, washed up 3B. They didn’t get it right the first time with Casey Blake, and he will likely be the one to come here.
Blalock would make for wasted space even here. He had one solid season, when pitchers weren’t yet accustomed to the new ballpark at Arlington. See: Blalock BA, HRs, RBI on the road last five seasons.
Carl Pohlad evidently wants to bury loads of money with him in the casket. That, or son Billy is going to take up the majority of it for more gay films (literally), such as ‘Brokeback Mountain’. There will be no such spending before the trade deadline. If there is a move, it’ll be in typical penny pinchin’ Twins ownership fashion.
Casey Blake or some other non-impact, flash in the pan type.
Evets,
1st, I forgot to put sarcasm alerts on my posts. I just was trying to get into the requisite negative spirit requesite for blog posting.
2nd, I think you have been following the Twins for over 30 years, I have followed the franchise for 50/51 years now. Neither of those stats means squat IMHO, other than you should be able to recognize we are currently experiencing the LONGEST sustained success/excellence in Franchise history, back to 1905 I believe.
I remember back when Pohlad bought the Twins, there seemed to be universal approval, and for the times, he did spend money. When it worked the crowds showed up, when it didn’t they didn’t, so on field success is more important than money spent.
I have heard LOTS of complaints that Pohlad owes you something because there is Public financing of the new stadium. WHERE were any of you over the past 30 or so years when the Twins were saddled with the ABSOLUTE WORST lease in sports? I have never seen anyone else post that fact.
Because Pohlad has money he should spend it, then why should you complain about a small contribution to the new stadium, you’ve got it.
I could go on, but I won’t.
Regards,
I agree with a lot of what Dragon just posted, which I must say surprises me.
for those of you ripping Smith after 2/3 of one season, and comparing him to McHale, umm, you aren’t credible. Seriously.
I agree, McHale would kick Smith’s ass in Basketball.
if the posters aren’t credible…. are they in-credible?
“Quit screwing around and trade for Garrett Atkins! Bill Smith could have had him earlier this year for either Garza or Slowey”
Instead he got Young for Garza. Good move on his part. Young has so much more potential than Atkins.
I wouldn’t trade Slowey for Atkins either. (I’d think about trading Blackburn or Perkins for Beltre, however.)
Mike,
Let me say some stuff no one will agree with to save your reputation
While I seem to be a FO defender and particularly a Gardy defender,I DO NOT agree with everything that is done.
There is one thing I ALWAYS remind myself before I go off on a managers decision or FO move or lack thereof. I am not in the clubhouse, so I DO NOT know any of the reasons a decision was made. I don’t know what players were on offer in trades.
Quite frankly I KNOW zilch. I may have an opinion, but NO KNOWLEDGE.
Regards,
The Twins ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have #3,#4 pitchers (Blackburn,Perkins,Slowly,Mulvey,Duensing,Boof,etc.)
The Twins need to trade one of their current #3 type young pitchers and preferably not Perkins to get Beltre, and have room for Liriano.
Lets look at the big picture:
Swapping a young #3 pitcher and a couple prospects for a young ACE pitcher and a power hitting 3B who hits for average, and plays good defense
It is worth it Bill, make it happen.
Beltre is exactly what the Twins need in their lineup’
Liriano is exactly what the twins need in their rotation
A #3 PITCHER SHOULD NOT STAND IN THE WAY OF LIRIANO AND BELTRE
Dragon,
1st - I noticed the sarcasm
2nd - Together we have over 80 year experience!
3rd - There was optimism when Pohlad bought the Twins. How could there not be, he followed Calvin.
I’m not a Carl hater because I don’t like rich people. I’m a business owner who aspires to be rich. I don’t like Pohlad because he’s a disaster as an owner. Face it, owning a pro franchise is a different animal than running any other type of company. If the Twins have to make 28% profit each and every year, they need a new owner. The Twins have won the divsion 4 out of 6 years, other than Shannon Stewart they didn’t add the player to get them over the hump when everyone, the GM, the players, the fans knew they had to.
I did show up in 1979 when they were terrible, I was at the dome in 1996 when the were losing 100 games, I’ve earned the right to be completely frustrated with their company line.
Who is worse than Carl Pohlad??
saam,
I definately agree on not trading either for Atkins. I would definately trade Blackburn for Beltre and I wouldn’t trade Perkins for any of the available people. Perkins is good now and IMO he is going to be a #2 for quite a few years.
I like Balckburn, but package him and one of our vaious expendables for Beltre…in a minute.
Tyler-I think we get to carried away with this#1,#2,#3 BS.Lirano would be considered an ace,after that i would consider the other 4 potential #2’s.Let’s hope that Livan pitches lights out tommorow night,we might be able to pry away someone decent at the trade deadline.
How come the even “smaller market” Brewers are having no problems addressing their needs??
Our owner is cheap and our front office is way too inbred.
If this team fails to make a significant move I will seriously contemplate cancelling my season tickets. I’m tired of this crap.
If we move on a 3b,it definatly should be someone who will be the 3b for the future.A power hitting righty would make other decisions easier(ie,we could have Go-Go and Span in the lineup full time).As posted by others,LaRoche is the best long term answer.
Evets,
You can be just as frustrated as you wish. You have that right.
I might even join you IF there was a salary cap/salary floor in baseball, where FO savy was rewarded.
We just happen to see things differently. Generally speaking, throwing money around DOES NOT translate well, particularly over time to winning.
I personally have been pleasantly surprised on how well the team has come together so far this year. YET, I don’t believe there is one or even two silver bullets while will automatically transform this team into a GUARANTEED WS winner.
According to a Washington Post story a week or 10 days ago, the Twins are the YOUNGEST team in Baseball. Many players still need to learn to play at the Major League level.
I don’t think either the Twins management or the fans have a clue to what the team is or can be at the major league level. Casilla & Span have been revelations so far, BUT we are talking 1/2 of the season or 1 month. Is it real, or is it imagined? You have Gomez, who needs a rev-limiter, and I don’t know if he will figure it out this season, but when he finally does, look out. His defense is valuable enough to keep him in the line-up while he figures the rest of things out. Young is a bit more of an enigma. He can obviously hit, is he comfortable?
We can rent a 3B, which just kicks finding out about a real 3b option down the road. I am not sure the cost is worth it, and I am not talking salary.
We may be a bit further down the line from the beginning of the season, where IMHO, the only positions which were reasonable clear/secure were C, 1B & RF. We may have added 2B, maybe another place in the OF, but I’m hopeful but not sure.
The young pups in the starting rotation have also been better than could have been expected, although they seem to be moving towards expectations.
There have been inconvienent injuries, which may be the norm in the post-steroid era.
Could Liriano help? I suspect so, yet that was also not a sure thing as recently as 3 weeks ago.
I take a longer view to the game, and I am sure I could be considered to have a short term focus compared to how a front office needs to operate.
I read ALL the criticism’s of the Lamb, Monroe & Everett signings and I laugh. Compared to where the team was in November/December, I think those were reasonable interim solutions. Well, they don’t seem to have worked, AND some of the hoped for solutions in the minors seem to have materialized.
If what you want is to make a move to make a move, so be it. Some of he best decisions I have made in my business are decisions I NEVER made.
Regards,
Pohlad is an old lying bastard. He conned us idiots into financing a stadium for him and now he and his equally tight assked sons refuse to ante up. The Pohlads did bring 2 rings here but nothing worthy since 91.
Evets,
Who is worse than Carl Pohlad?
Try Peter Angelos. Threw money around like candy. Brought his sons in because they were Good/Great Fantasy Baseball players.
He’s managed to decimate a very good franchise, AND he has spent lots of money doing it.
Regards,
It’s been so long that I forgot it’s a lot fun trying to figure out a helpful FA player to bring in durng FA frenzy. It’s all make believe anyways because it aint goin to happin. But when your a Twins fan at the end of July, just shy of being on he cusp, you take the bait….theres many possibities. Wtih all thnigs considered, I’d hope to get Beltre for Blackburn and Livan - Seattle needs a vet. pitcher *(Livan and Silva in the same rotation, the fielders should derss as gladiators, But Seattle gets a young promissing pithcher with limied success, Livan can get his 120 pitches a game and we get a differnce maker at 3rd in the field and power on the right were we lack. Plus Beltre can be signed longer term….seems loical, so I’m stickn to it!
what is the big deal with adrian beltre? he’s a good third baseman and has a good bat, but everyone acts like he’d be a savior who would come in and lead this team.
let’s look at some stats for this year:
A - .259 AVG, .762 OPS, 48 runs, 17 2B, 0 3B, 16 HR, 46 RBI, 41 BB, 62 K, 7 SB.
B - .259 AVG, .778 OPS, 47 runs, 10 2B, 3 3B, 13 HR, 48 RBI, 31 BB, 54 K, 0 SB.
C - .287 AVG, .828 OPS, 45 runs, 24 2B, 0 3B, 11 HR, 58 RBI, 33 BB, 67 K, 2 SB.
Overall, what stat line is the best? i think almost everyone would say line C. A and B seem almost identical. Other than HR, line C is clearly more valuable than the other two. Well, line A is Adrian Beltre. Line B is our very own Jason Kubel. Line C is the third baseman the Twins SHOULD be going after, CASEY BLAKE. If they can get the indians to trade within the division (and i don’t see why the indians would miss blake), then i think they should jump on it. The Mariners want a young major league pitcher and top prospects for Adrian Beltre and his 12 Million Dollar salary? where’s the sense in that? they could get Blake from the Indians for 2 prospects max, say a duensing or a mulvey and someone else. Where’s the Casey Blake conversation?
and then there’s these stats:
Beltre - .958 Fielding % with 11 Errors
Blake - .941 Fielding % with 11 Errors
While Beltre’s % is a little better so far this year, Blake had a .962 % last season at 3B, so he can obviously field the position.
the Twins have a real shot at making the playoffs - however, for the month of July they have been playing less than .500 baseball - starting pitching has been “ok” - but that won’t have them in the playoffs in October - my point is - Lirano continues to try to understand why he is still in Rochester, now allowing only 1ER in the past 35 innings, 5 starts - it can only be confusing the kid - before we blow the season, get him into the mix with the MLB club - only one guy’s opinion -
Riiiiiiiiight.
The Rockies, a team out of the race, that has now reportedly decided they might keep Atkins because they are probably going to lose Holliday, is going to trade Atkins to the Twins… for a package including Livan Hernandez and Boof Bonser.
I needed a good laugh.
I can’t stand hearing about Garza in Tampa and Santana in New York. Even Kenny Rogers and Sidney Ponson. Quit dumping quality pitchers and spend some frikken money and buy a couple of guys. Shannon Stewart and Don Baylor helped out a pennant drive for us, start flashing some money around.
And Liriano won’t help much this year. He needs to start fresh in Spring Training and be the Opening Day Pitcher and be the Ace of the staff, which is what he wants and WE want! ! !
After I wrote that I was waiting for you to bring up the Angelos comment, I believe they are 1 and 1.A. We could debate later on who is worst.
I believe Pohlad purposely stunk up the years from 1993- 2000, to first dump/threat that the Team was leaving to the Triad area (1997). When that was a farce he tried to disband the operation (2001).
Thankfully a judge stopped that. He’s not going to the HOF with that tract record. Thankfully he had Kirby and good managers.
He’s responsible to put out competitive teams, when he does, MN fans repect that and show up. But many cannot forgive him for the above lame attempts to get rid of the Twins for quite a few years with really bad teams and slick marketing O.K. enough.
We agree to disagree on how Carl runs the team.
Do Not trade left handed pitching!!! I said it when they dealt Neagle and I say it now. They do not have quality lefties in the minors.
“Beltre is exactly what the Twins need in their lineup’
Liriano is exactly what the twins need in their rotation
A #3 PITCHER SHOULD NOT STAND IN THE WAY OF LIRIANO AND BELTRE”
Amen!
I saw that bit on the Rox possibly being buyers….that would likely explain why they were VERY reluctant to deal Atkins for anything but top notch stuff.
This whole Beltre thing with Seattle I think is evidence that overvaluing a player in a trade has become the new over-paying Free Agents.
You get one team like the Tigers, Brewers or Cubs who throw all kinds of prospects at a team for a guy (a RENTAL in Sabathia) and that sets the market for the year.
Baseball’s becoming an ugly business. You either have to throw a ton of money at a guy and cripple the roster around that…or throw a bunch of prospects at a team and cripple the roster in the long term.
Fun?
If they can’t land Beltre, coming up with something to try out Blalock for the rest of the season would be a natural step…heck, if the Rangers are shopping Padilla maybe make THAT the focus of the trade and work Blalock into it as you go.
That would open up some roster room to bring up Liriano.
But he’ll be with the club in time to pitch one of the games against the Sox. And it won’t be out of the pen. They want to make one move with Liriano and then he’s with the club for good. AS A STARTER.
Dragon:
I don’t believe there is one or even two silver bullets while will automatically transform this team into a GUARANTEED WS winner.
The fanbase seems to get to this point every year. Going into the season, this team was supposedly a disaster…would be lucky to finish above .500, and would likely be waving goodbye to Nathan in the next few days.
But now, as with every season, somehow the team is magically just ONE BAT away from the playoffs. Again.
There ARE ways this team could be improved, but people just scream “TRADE!” and don’t actually have a good way to make it work. They just pile up a bunch of Twins they don’t like (pick any three out of Bonser, Livan, Lamb, Everett, Punto, Cuddyer, Young, or Slowey) and suggest throwing them at the other team as if that’ll be the key to getting a guy like Atkins, or A-Rod.
People seem to forget that it ALWAYS takes two teams to trade. One to make an offer and the other to accept. Smith can’t just pick up a phone and say “Give me Beltre.” or “I need Street.” and that’s the end of it.
Smith has to deal quality to get quality. And right now some of the best quality the Twins have is also some the key players in their current push.
So if they trade Blackburn, Slowey, or Perkins (depending on which one it is Mariners have their eyes on) to get Beltre…Liriano can come up, yes. But now your rotation is down one of those three, and Livan is still there.
And now there’s nobody to take over Livan’s spot. Well, at least nobody obviously ready.
So even if Liriano is an upgrade to the rotation, it comes at the cost of a guy who really wasn’t that bad to begin with, as comparred to Livan…who is night and day sometimes.
I was surprised to see Everett here. No one said anything about it. He’ll play five games with the Wings and then rejoin the Twins. The big question is, who will come down? We were speculating on that in the press box, and the common feeling is Brian Buscher. Even though he’s playing well, who else would come here to make room for Everett? - Jim Mandelaro, covering the Red Wings
“So if they trade Blackburn, Slowey, or Perkins (depending on which one it is Mariners have their eyes on) to get Beltre…Liriano can come up, yes. But now your rotation is down one of those three, and Livan is still there.
And now there’s nobody to take over Livan’s spot. Well, at least nobody obviously ready.
So even if Liriano is an upgrade to the rotation, it comes at the cost of a guy who really wasn’t that bad to begin with, as comparred to Livan…who is night and day sometimes.”
T
An offensive (and defensive) upgrade at third would offset the loss of a starting pitcher. I’m not saying it is the right move to make, but it is one I would at least seriously consider.
OBP SLG AVG
.391 .500 .363
Buscher vs RHP.
bringing back everett makes zero sense to me. in the limited amount we’ve seen him this year, he is inferior to punto in nearly every category. instead of wasting playing time for him to rehab, we should’ve cut him loose when he got hurt. no room for him now. no position player is worth the move to bring him back up. i’d rather wait for tolbert to become healthy and bring him back up instead. at least he has a future with the organization
You don’t even have to trade anyone, just option/waive/release Bass and presto! there’s a spot for Liriano. And that’s a pretty good trade.
My guess is they’ll bring him the Franchise up to pitch against the WSox early next. If he’s scheduled to pitch today (I think I read that somewhere) and they keep him on schedule (wouldn’t you?) that would mean Wednesday night. Leaves plenty of time to market his return, and let’s face it, folks prefer to spend their money to see the best, so if they’re smart they’re going to push this Return to the Rotation all weekend, every game.
Get your tickets early. That’s my guess. Any marketing folk out there care to weigh in on that assessment?
Kind of meanspirited there about the princess league. This year for some reason the Twins did seem to be overwhelmed. I believe it was the overall youth of the team. Doubtful after a year of seasoning they will play like that in those old washed up stadiums. Boston needs a new place to play. Thankfully the Yanks get a new place. Those are some hideous digs.
They may just DFA Everett. There isn’t that much time/money left on his contract anyway.
Everett is a bench option at this point. I don’t think ANYBODY is looking forward to his return.
He WAS supposedly a better Punto defensively. Now Punto is Punto defensively but currently is carrying the better stick.
Though I think both are expendable when Tolbert comes back (if only because he’d be a cheaper version of the same thing)
An offensive (and defensive) upgrade at third would offset the loss of a starting pitcher.
That’s a very good point. If Beltre is what everybody thinks he is (shades of Denny Green in hat sentence?) then having him in the lineup everyday on top of an improved chance of winning with Liriano every 5th could do it.
I’m sure the FO is pouring over the numbers on that one.
I’d actually be curious to see if it seriously is any of the four young starters. Or if there’s been one specifically named.
I think Baker is the untouchable of the four, while Slowey would be the one I think is least likely desired by Seattle.
Liriano’s next scheduled start for rochester is on Sunday. so a call up to pitch against the Sox on monday seems most likely, with him skipping that start.
Tolbert may not be our long term answer at 3B, SS or 2B, but he plays every position damn good and has a good eye and stick at the plate and has speed. I expect him to be with the twins for a long time as #1 utility guy.
Monday doesn’t give the club as much time to market the Return to the Rotation as W’day, but I’ll bet we’ll be hearing Bert & Ernie babbling on about it at length all weekend…
Middle infielders are at a premium. The Twins organization is lean at SS, so I think they will be happy to have Everett return.
“Evets says:
July 24th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
IowaTwin….You must be kidding. Look it up, Livan’s stats are on track to be the most futile in the history of the game. BAA, WHIP, every real stat that measures pitching performance. An innings eater? We have a whole bunch of bullpen pitchers that are less futile that can ‘Eat Innings’. That is the worst agruement. No, I stand corrected, the track record is the worst…When was Livan’s last effective year?”
I looked it up, he’s 10-6 and his arm isn’t giving out. That’s the only stats that are important. Baseball fans spend WAY too much time looking at stats.
Evets your so right. Baseball is a business and its getting to be a dirty business with each passing day. Carl bought this team thinking he could make this a profitable business. In some ways he has been successful and in others not so lucky. Perhaps Mr. BS can’t make any important moves because of money. In short our GM is no Billy bean when it comes to making trades. fro me this is a major sticking point with me. This team does not want to trade talent to get talent or spend some money to buy talent they so despartely need to ensure a good season.
Seattle doesn’t want to trade Beltre, unless some team offered up a king’s ransom in return. The Twins aren’t going wipe out their best prospects for a short term rental. The Twins have moved on, so should the fans. A Beltre trade isn’t going to happen.
“I think Baker is the untouchable of the four, while Slowey would be the one I think is least likely desired by Seattle”
Agree on Baker. He may be the one they are pushing for. It would make sense because Seattle has made so many terrible moves recently. The last thing they want to see is Beltre succeed somewhere else while the player(s) they traded for struggle.
“A Beltre trade isn’t going to happen.”
I’m inclined to agree with you, Craig. But I talk trade more as an excuse to talk baseball. I don’t expect the Twins to do anything major, but up until 7/31, anything is possible.
I just want to add that at least reported, Seattle wasn’t just asking for one of the young starters for Beltre. They were asking for one of the young starters PLUS two decent prospects. This isn’t just Slowey (or whoever) for Beltre. If it was, I’m sure Smith would be all over it. But they also want two good prospects, and that is asking too much.
Sendric
As long as it is not Revere or guerra and only one of valencia and Hughes I dont care
Also if the Twins force buscher back to the minors to make room for Everett… I would have to pimp slap Billy.
How about Cuddyer at 3rd when he comes back? Solves the outfield excess problem and his defense cannot be any worse than Butcher’s…
Tyler,
That’s all well and good, but Bill Smith is paid to care. Besides, we don’t know who the players are that they want. I’m sure there are names on the table that you didn’t list. I truly hope they find a fit as I would love to get Beltre, but I don’t want the Twins to mortgage the future to get him. This is a very young team which they can build to compete for several years.
Cuddyer is no longer a third baseman. It’s a nice idea, but I just don’t see it happening.
Sentric,
what Seattle is asking was not reported; was inferred by LaVelle. The quote was that Seattle would like Blanton-like return and the assumption was that it would be one of the 4 starters in the majors.
However, Blanton did not return any major league players, but 2 top rated minor league prospects and a non-prospect.
An equivalent trade would be Beltre for Swarzak and Plouffe and Toby Gardenhire ( 
)
here is a link to LaVelle’s original post:
http://ww3.startribune.com/blogs/neal/2008/07/19/trade-for-beltre-doesnt-look-possible/
Maybe McPhail can give up Brian Roberts and George Sherill for some 2nd tier prospects.
Another Mc(Fail) helping his old team to win a title
Is the average Twins fan’s memory so short that they’re already forgetting the disaster that woas Cuddyer at 3B?
Cuddy didn’t like playing 3B because he SUCKED at playing 3B. This isn’t Gardy or TR or BS giving in to Cuddy’s whims, this is Cuddy not being a viable option and thus being moved.
Can we move on from suggestion Cuddyer make a “triumphant” return to a position he can’t play?
Why not ask Monroe to take over for Punto at SS while we’re at it?
thrylos98
I know what the report said. My point was simply that everyone here seems to be saying that it would be great to trade one of our young pitchers (except Baker) for Beltre. I agree, but Seattle wasn’t looking for a straight-up trade. This isn’t a “I can live with losing Slowey if we get Beltre” scenario. That’s all I was really getting at.
“In short our GM is no Billy bean when it comes to making trades. fro me this is a major sticking point with me. This team does not want to trade talent to get talent or spend some money to buy talent they so despartely need to ensure a good season.”
These kinds of statements are just downright false. What has Billy Beane done for the A’s that Twins fans wouldn’t be pissed about? He deals away talented players instead of paying them. His teams are always in contention, yet never seem to be able to get over the proverbial hump. He doesn’t go out and break the bank on the big time free agents. Doesn’t that sound exactly like what Twins fans seem to complain about day in and day out?
T -
While I agree that Cuddyer isn’t moving back to 3B, I don’t think it was the disaster that you are making it out to be. He had higher than average errors for the position, but his range was pretty much average for the position.
“Seattle wasn’t looking for a straight-up trade.”
Maybe they were. Maybe they wanted Liriano and Smith said, “no thanks.”
I’m not saying what Smith “should” do. Smith knows way more about both the Twins players and any potential trade targets than I do. My point has been that the I would consider the trade for Beltre and that I don’t agree with some who have asserted that trading one of Perkins/Blackburn/Slowey would be a deal breaker.
I like the thought of Padilla possibly becoming a Twin. He’s been a pain in the rear to the White Sox, so that’s an immediate plus. And the Twins could use a dependable setup man for Nathan.
“Maybe they were. Maybe they wanted Liriano and Smith said, “no thanks.”
I’m not saying what Smith “should” do. Smith knows way more about both the Twins players and any potential trade targets than I do. My point has been that the I would consider the trade for Beltre and that I don’t agree with some who have asserted that trading one of Perkins/Blackburn/Slowey would be a deal breaker.”
Agreed 100%. It’s not a deal breaker. You just have to look at the prospects that they also want before determining if its a good deal.
The Twins score more than enough runs to win it all. All the hand wringing about another hitter is unwarranted.
If the Twins don’t make it, just figure it was because the team had Young and Gomez instead of Garza and Santana.
A lot of people seem to think you can just move player X for player Y and be done with it, but obviously it isn’t that simple since we literally have no idea what is being discussed for certain. My question is, would Beltre be a rental or a permanent fixture, and for how many years? He is 29 years old, has had several solid seasons offensively, and has been awarded a gold glove. That sounds like a pretty nice player for 3-4 years if you ask me. If they view him as a mid to long term solution at 3rd I say it is worth considering offering a few prospects and one of our starters.
The Twins are not “one bat away” but adding Beltre would remove a what has become a rather large hole for hopefully a few years at least. If you can’t get everything done at once, take ‘em down one at a time. I think most of us agree that the current team, as the roster stands today is not capable of winning the WS anyway.
The New and Improved Craig says:
July 25th, 2008 at 9:38 am
The Twins score more than enough runs to win it all.
No, they don’t. Not against good pitching and not in the playoffs. They need more talented hitters, preferably with power.
LVD,
Beltre is under contract through next year, so the Twins would at least have him for that long. Whether they can extend him beyond that is unknown, but I’d love to see it happen (you know, if they get him). I wonder if he would drop his asking price down a little just to avoid having to play on a cr@ppy team.
Also, it isn’t like Buscher is that much younger than Beltre. I believe Buscher is 27.
I really think if it takes a trade like:
Perkins/Slowey/Blackburn
Swarzak/Robertson/Devries/Mulvey/Humber
Hughes/Valencia/Tolbert/Macri/Span
(mix and match, I think something in a combination of those guys would get it done)
Billy Smith should do it.
Adrian Beltre will fit in flawlessly. He already plays ‘Twins Baseball’ in the fact He plays great defense, and it adds a slugging bat to a lineup in need of one. Don’t kid yourselves, a 20-25 HR guy playing 3rd for the Twins is a huge upgrade. And I don’t really view a move like this to be a ‘rental’. He’s still under contract for all of next season (when he could be moved again if the team was playing poorly) at a price that would be the same as if Torii had signed. I can’t believe the FO isn’t willing to pay a salary like that.
As far as losing starting pitching prospects in a trade, i think thats a load of BS as well. There are so many good ‘prospects’ in our system that they can’t all make it to the majors, whats the harm right now with Liriano laying in wait?
in MLB: Slowey, Blackburn, Perkins
At AAA: Duensing, Mulvey, Humber
at AA: Swarkaz, Mullins, Manship
At A+: Guerra, Burnett, Devries, Robertson, (Gutierrez, a 1st rounder has gotta be a ‘prospect’ regardless of your opinion of the pick)
at A: McCardell, Hunt(looking like next Garza)
Looking at that list, a move can be weathered. And frankly, the next guys that are gonna come up as starters in my opinion will be Duensing (when rosters expand), Mulvey, and Shooter Hunt(next year, ala Garza). I just don’t see any of the other guys unless injuries befall our current crop of all young MLB SP. Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Perkins. That looks like a GREAT group of 4 SP to build around. But I think any of Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Liriano OR Baker, Liriano, Slowey, Perkins, OR Baker, Blackburn, Liriano, Perkins looks even better. After this year when Livan’s gone, those 4 with another young arm I think would be even better. By then I think Baker will have cemented a workhorse status and Liriano will be the no-doubt ace. thats a good 1-2, tbe 2 other young guys would be an above average 3-4, and some other guy would fill in just fine for a #5.
I just don’t see a downside to making a deal like this. Even if we were to let Beltre walk to FA, I still think we get 2 draft picks ala Hunter. I’m fine with that for adding a piece to the lineup everyone has always known the twins have needed (a RH power threat), and improving its defense. People didn’t expect this team to compete this year, maybe not even til ‘09 or ‘10, but they are, why can’t the NOW be moved up?
Dave,
The Twins have hit well against plenty of good pitchers. Their hitting is more than adequate for the playoffs or World Series.
The Twins are 10th out of 14 teams in stolen bases. Gardy seems to have shut down the running game again this year, just like last. It becomes a stand around and wait for Morneau kind of deal. The Twins stop being aggressive, and go into the tank.
The Twins will not trade Span. Unless Gomez can make some huge adjustments, Span me be the only CF in the organization, who is prepared to play in the majors. They should add some depth in CF, not lose some.
I like the Twins Notes Guy. That is exactly what I think only typed in better detail and organization. I really believe the trade scenario that Twins guy brought up is somewhere close to what the M
’s want, but Billy for some reason thinks its too much… ITS NOT!!!. We will finish 3rd in this division if we do not add Liriano and Beltre.
K, take span out, I still think there’s a trade in there.
Could also insert Pridie, he’s been coming on strong at Rochester, hitting .324 with 6 HRs this month and like .400 in his last 10 games. and he’d be the ‘depth’ in CF your talking about ‘needing’, also are guys named Dustin Martin, Ben Revere, and Joe Benson. i thought we were stocked with ‘toolsy’ OF.
And who else besides Span could have some value in a trade who’s on the MLB roster(which might be a prerequisite for a deal)? cuddyer?
If I have one large criticism of Gardy, it is his tendency to focus too much on the contribution of Morneau. The Twins don’t steal anymore because they don’t want to risk potential base-runners for Morneau. There is all this obsessing about protecting Morneau in the line-up, by putting a big bat behind him. Young is brought in to protect Morneau. The obsessing continues.
Baseball is a team sport and the focus should be on scoring by maximizing the talent 1 through 9, in the line-up. Obsessing about one player is bad for the team. One hitter rarely has a huge impact on a team. Maybe Ty Cobb and a handful of others have had that kind of impact. That’s about it.
Pridie, Martin, Revere and Benson aren’t prepared to play in the big leagues. Pridie doesn’t have the talent and Revere and Benson are years away. Martin has taken a fade in AA. The way Gomez swings the bat, the Twins have to hold on to Span.
Besides, why trade a player who might become the most talented player on the club? Mauer is clearly better than Span right now, but after that, I don’t think anyone else is a clearly better player. Morneau is a more powerful hitter, of course.
The New and Improved Craig your Span idea has been working fairly well as of late.
Craig - I think maximizing the talent 1 through 9 like you say is definable for this team by adding a Beltre.
Span - RF
Casilla - 2B
Mauer - C
Morneau - 1B
Beltre - 3B
Kubel/Cuddyer/Monroe - DH/OF
Young - LF
Harris/Punto - SS
Gomez - CF
looks pretty good don’t it?
and I agree, this giving up on the running game is a bad move. I think the biggest strength of the team is its speed, why aren’t we using it anymore?
and thanks for backing me up tyler!
craig - gotcha! (COUGHmonroecanplaycenter…COUGH)
I don’t think Gomez ever plays another game of AAA ball in his career unless he’s on a rehab stint though. I don’t really know why I think that other than the twins seemed to have invested their future in him at CF and we all know Gardy doesn’t want to ‘destroy his confidence.’
jimmy,
Span has really improved. He’s much better than I thought he was, when I was pushing him as the CF last winter. I knew he was good, but he has really surprised people, including me.
Buscher is a player who has really learned to hit, since coming to the Twins. RHP, anyway. The glove is rough, but he can hit. Casilla has to be the other surprise of the year. The Twins were not counting on any of those three.
Good point on the running game Craig. Also Span is about a year removed from being everyone’s heir apparent to Hunter, so it’s not like he’s coming from out of nowhere. He is talented.
just for reference, I’ve read the Mariners are seeking something similar to the Joe Blanton trade in a return for Beltre.
they gave up Baseball America’s #3 (adrian cardenas) and #6(josh outman) and a lower level OF prospect in Matt Spencer.
Baseball America lists the Twins top prospects as:
1. Nick Blackburn, rhp
2. Joe Benson, of
3. Wilson Ramos, c
4. Tyler Robertson, lhp
5. Anthony Swarzak, rhp
6. Ben Revere, of
7. Jason Pridie, of
8. Brian Duensing, lhp
9. Jeff Manship, rhp
10. Trevor Plouffe, ss
(that list I’m sure could use an update, but its only for reference)
TNG,
The scouting reports say Monroe is a bad corner OF. I don’t know how he became the backup CF with the Twins.
Gomez, Young and Span should stay in the OF. They are the teams most talented OF. They will get better, though I’m worried about Gomez. I’m surprised he is hitting .250. Beating out ground balls had kept him in the lineup. Only his outstanding speed has kept him in the majors. Without that, I don’t think he could hit .175.
Twins Guy
I would be fine giving up one of slowly/blackburn/perkins. (hopefully Slowly), and any combination of two of the top ten (except Revere). If the M’s want Perk or Blackburn though it would be a tough call but i would still make it happen.
Craig - thats what the cough was for… I agree with you if your looking for a veteran presence in CF, but the depth in the system is there.
and in conjuction with your thoughts, whats your opinion of the value Cuddyer holds for the team now and in the future if those 3 should stay in the OF?
Tyler - I agree 100% for reasons stated above.
and I don’t think it should be that tough of a call, but I probably don’t run a MLB team for a reason…
Pridie and Plouffe. I think BA has missed on those two.
I like this guy Steven Tolleson (AA). From what I have read, he is the man. I also like Brian Dinkelman. That guy can play. Rene Tosoni is hurt, but he can hit. Tosoni is another Canadian, I think. Revere is talented, but he is in low class A ball. Joe Benson still seems over-matched at low class A, but he is very young.
He had higher than average errors for the position, but his range was pretty much average for the position.
The other issue with Cuddyer at 3B is it still doesn’t solve the 3B problem.
Regardless of what the cause may or may not be, Cuddyer hasn’t been able to produce at 2006 levels.
You’d be shifting him from an average RF to an average 3B (if not subpar offensively)
TNG,
The twins will probably keep 5 OF. Monroe is likely to get dumped. Kubel, Cuddyer, Young, Gomez and Span will split up the remaining games about equally. Kubel will sit against LHP, and Gomez will sit more often against RHP. Cuddy, Young, and Span will also do some bench time.
Would this be an acceptable trade option: Trade prospects for Blalock and then trade Kubel and Buscher
(or Harris) for Beltre.
Beltre plays 3B and Blalock to DH against righthanders.
We keep the 4 young arms plus Liriano.
Can we take a chance that Blalock stays healthy? Can Blalock be a sufficient replacement for Kubel?
The Rangers are looking for a young arm who could start for them next year. Duensing or Mulvey could fit the bill.
Is this fair value to Seattle? Would Seattle have any interest? The Mariners DH is struggling and has no power and Buscher/Harris would replace Beltre.
Is this too many moves for the Twins?
Probably, but I thought I would throw it
out there.
The obsessing continues.
Your power guy is never going to get a pitch to hit if they can just walk him everytime (as demonstrated in Detroit).
There needs to be a guy that can consistently hit (and hit hard) so that they are less likely to pitch around Morneau.
I know you hate Morneau for some reason, but come off it.
I don’t like Cuddyers contract in the future if he’s not everyday then…
I’ve also thought Cuddyer at 3B might be an option, but I don’t recall him being very good, and he’s an excellent defensive outfielder with his arm and how he plays the baggie.
The twins will probably use Morneau, Casilla, Everett, Punto, Harris and Lamb, as the 6 INF. Buscher, unfortunately, returns to AAA.
Would this be an acceptable trade option…
It may be acceptable on this end, but I don’t know if it would be on the M’s side.
TNG,
Each OF will only miss about 1 day a week, sometimes two. Cuddyer will be a regular. Kubel will always sit vs LHP. He has no chance against them. There are only about 60 games left. Over the winter the Twins could make a trade. There are enough AB for all 5, for the remaining games. Someone will hurt their finger, anyway, and go on the DL. It’s the year of the finger, you know.
It’s good to know TNaiC can move on.
It was only a week or so ago he was telling us with absolute conviction Buscher had to go because Gardy would never put up with the poor quality of his throws to first, and rightly so.
Now it’s “unfortunate” if Buscher returns to AAA.
Myself, I have a hard time flip-flopping like that. I have the utmost admiration for a person who can form new opinions so quickly.
T,
Maybe another prospect thrown the Mariners way might do it?
ya ya, I agree its great for this year with the injuries and all. I don’t like it for the future though if those are the 5 they go with.
someone would miss too much time.
MLBtraderumors.com:
Knobler’s Latest: Pirates, Brewers, Beltre, Cabrera
By Tim Dierkes [July 25 at 8:29am CST]
Here’s the latest from CBSSports.com’s Danny Knobler.
-A rumor made the rounds that Pirates president Frank Coonelly and GM Neal Huntington were at odds over the team’s strategy, with Coonelly pushing .500 as a goal. Huntington denied that, and has five coveted players to work with in the next week. Keep in mind that only Damaso Marte is a free agent after the season, so moves can be made in the offseason.
-Teams with available relievers believes the Brewers are still in the market, despite Doug Melvin’s claims. Many teams are scouting the Brewers’ Double A club.
-Adrian Beltre’s contract wouldn’t be a problem for the Twins, but the teams haven’t found a match on players.
-Knobler heard that the Marlins might consider Baltimore catcher Ramon Hernandez.
-The rumor about Kevin Towers becoming a candidate for the Seattle GM vacancy won’t die.
-Some folks expect the White Sox to move shortstop Orlando Cabrera before the deadline. They’re still looking for pitching.
USAFChief,
New facts came to light, Chief. Buscher showed what a fine hitter he could be. Span is showing he is better than most thought. Punto is not as bad as many thought. If a player proves me wrong, I accept the new reality. Rational people, who are very unlike yourself, will do that. Buscher has limitations in the field, but he has vastly improved as a hitter. Both Buscher and Span are taking excellent disciplined at bats. I look at that, and I can either continue with my head in the sand, and maintain Buscher is awful, or I can accept the embrace the fact that the player is better than I thought he ever could be, and I was wrong.
Now you Chief, are another story. You continue to steadfastly maintain your same opinions no matter what. No flip flopping for the Chief. The USAFChief won’t be confused with the facts. He’s ALWAYS right, even when he isn’t. I’m glad you are a rock solid man, who never changes his mind no matter what. Full speed ahead, with blinders firmly in place, regardless of the facts. Go get ‘em USAFChief. It’s all black and white to you. Charge!
Craig Now you Chief, are another story. You continue to steadfastly maintain your same opinions no matter what. No flip flopping for the Chief. The USAFChief won’t be confused with the facts. He’s ALWAYS right, even when he isn’t. I’m glad you are a rock solid man, who never changes his mind no matter what. Full speed ahead, with blinders firmly in place, regardless of the facts. Go get ‘em USAFChief. It’s all black and white to you. Charge!
LOL hillarious as usuall.
Craig buddy, there’s a difference between changing ones mind and flip-flopping.
TNG,
I agree, long term it’s not the best plan, but for this year Gardy can pick four of the five he thinks will help him win that day. All of them are pretty good players. If I had to pick four I’d leave out Kubel. The others are more athletic. Young and Cuddyer would have to share DH, with Cuddy also spelling Morneau. I think it’s good to have Kubel in the mix. He’s strong against RHP, and against RHP Gomez is weak. It will be mix and match.
Craig has to go to work. You guys can figure out how the Twins can keep Buscher around. I like his swing.
Thanks jimmy,
If I place my hand on a hot burner on the stove, I flip-flop it right off. I have no pride at all. Chief let’s his hand fry, while maintaining he was right about the burner being cold. To each his own.
Just for the record, a pitchers w-l record is not important, the team record in his starts, IMHO is important.
Dragon, nice to see someone pick up for my lack of being around.
Seems so may people are so stat obsessed, that they can’t see the forest for the trees.
The only important stat in baseball is the team W. Anyone that feels differently is simply not a true fan. When was the last time that a real fan was happy after a 1-0 loss? I know I can’t remember one single game where I was happy after my team got beat. A win is a win in my book. It doesn’t matter if the team gave up 0 or 20 runs, as long as the W went into the books.
I am a big football fan. I don’t care how many points my team gives up, all I care is that my team has 1 more than the opposistion, since in the end, that is all that really matters.
The lack of W’s is what gets coaches fired. The W is what puts fans in the stands. The W is what gets the team the penant. The W is what gets the team the World Series. None of those are going to hinge on era, whip or any other stats. The only stat that matters is the team win.
If anybody disagrees, feel free to try to convince me that a loss is better than a W, but, you will have a tough row to hoe, since I obviously would rather my team win.
Livan has been a winner for this team, PERIOD, prove otherwise, and you will make me believe that you are GOD.
Craig There is no changing the “ol fire dog’s” mind once it is made up. I personally would season my hand using a little Montreal seasoning and stir fry it
I want to see just how high Livans ERA can go while still accumilating (20/ hoping)wins this season
Me Too,
do you think Bleyleven should be in the hall?
The only important stat in baseball is the team W.
And while it’s the most important stat at the end of the day, it is the single worst measure of a single player’s contribution period.
You said it yourself. It’s a TEAM WIN. As in, the entire team contributed to it.
I have a pitcher who only gives up one run a game. Every time. It’s like clockwork.
I have another pitcher who only gives up 10 runs a game. Every time. It’s like clockwork.
My record when the first pitcher takes the mound is 3-7.
My record when the second pitcher takes the mouns is 7-3.
Why?
Because I have an offense that 50% of the time scores 11 runs. The other 50% of the time they get shut out.
Who’s the better pitcher?
————
If I place my hand on a hot burner on the stove, I flip-flop it right off.
ROFL straw man.
Why don’t we try to acquire Casey Blake?
Me Too… I don’t disagree that the goal is to win and that how you accomplish that goal is secondary to having actually done so.
That said, I think where statistics can come in to play is as a tool for projecting the likelihood of future wins, which I’m sure you would agree are important as well.
For example, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable argument that a pitcher with a 3.00 ERA and a reasonable expectation of maintaining it going forward is more likely to lead his team to more WINS in the future than a pitcher with a 6.00 ERA.
I agree there are more factors that go in to the likelihood of a team winning than merely the starting pitcher’s ERA and some of those factors are quite possibly intangibles that no statistic can pinpoint.
I’m not a member of the “kick Livan to the curb Club”. But I do think it’s fair to have the debate and that such a discussion certainly can and should consider more factors than what the team’s record has been in games he has started… just as I feel that record should be INCLUDED in the discusion.
Shawn in Binghamton says:
July 25th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Me Too,
do you think Bleyleven should be in the hall?
Pardon me to intrude on a question. Yes without a shadow of a doubt in saying this. YES!!!!!
Why don’t we try to acquire Casey Blake?
Reports on FSN and ESPN say the Twins have talked to Cleveland about Blake as well as Texas about Blalock (and of course Seattle about Beltre).
I’m guessing they’d be more careful about what they’d give up to get Blake…as you’re giving your division rival something that would come back and bite you in the butt.
If Livan accumulates 20 team wins, I could care less how high his ERA, WHIP, BAA, or any of his other stats are. The 20 team wins is a pretty good season for any pitcher. Dang, I would be very, very happy with that season if that was to be the case.
So far, once in 20 years arm dude,
9-10 team record (not good for a 20 year arm)
Gomez trade dude.
11-10 (not good for what is considered best pitcher in baseball)
Washed up piece of crap dude.
14-7
Which pitcher has had the most success this year?
Which pitcher has their team winning the most games?
Which pitcher is currently pitching for the Twins?
And, finally, which pitcher is constantly getting mentioned as being worthless, craptastic, unworthy of a roster spot?
Guess which pitcher I am going to continue backing?
T, I think you and I were making a similar point. But I wouldn’t immediately discount the team’s record in your example, either. If I saw that set of circumstances, I would immediately look for reasons why that 1.00 pitcher was losing so many games.
Does he get all the tough pitching matchups? Does one pitcher work so slow that his defense falls asleep behind him and makes 5X as many errors as they do behind the other guy and end up being lethargic at the plate as well? Is he such a jerk that his offense takes the day off whenever he pitches?
I guess I’m not willing to rule out the possibility that there are other factors at work that might provide reasons why one pitcher sees more Ws than another with a lower ERA. I just feel there are a multitude of factors that warrant examination, rather than just Wins or just ERA or just WHIP or any other single statistic.