Thoughts On The Near No-No
Posted on May 7th, 2008 – 12:01 AMBy La Velle
I have seen three no-hitters in person in my lifetime. Bret Saberhagen’s against the White Sox in 1991, David Wells’ perfect game against the Twins in 1998 and Eric Milton’s no-no against the Angels in 1999.
If Gavin Floyd had pulled off a no-no against the Twins on Tuesday it would have been the sloppiest, most unjust no-hitter that I can remember.
Floyd was far from overpowering. In fact, I sent Joe C. a text message around the fourth inning remarking how Floyd couldn’t get ANY breaking pitches or his change up, over for strikes. I was convinced that the Twins would sit on the fastball and start pounding him. I thought Nick Blackburn pitched than Floyd in the early innings but didn’t have the results to show for it.
That great adjustment by Twins hitters never came, which was disappointing coming off of their game against Kenny Rogers on Sunday.
One thing I noticed was that the Twins, while trying to have good at-bats, took a few fastballs down the middle for strike one. I really thought they were going to get to Floyd. Floyd didn’t even get a curveball over for a called strike until the seventh inning, based on my recollections.
The Twins should have hit this guy. I know its easy for me to write that from my position but geez….
How about Joe Mauer? Two big hits in two games.
Everyone will talk about how well Floyd pitched on Tuesday. I won’t. The Twins created the mess.
219 Responses to "Thoughts On The Near No-No"
I didn’t get a chance to watch tonight’s contest, but that sounds completely consistent with Floyd’s 15 walks in just 31 innings going into this game. He’ll end the season with an ERA closer to last year’s 5.27 than whatever ERA he’s sporting now.
LaVelle, I think the world knows where I stand with the Twins hitting situation. It’s a system wide issues from scouting, drafting to minors, and the buck stops with Joe Vavra.
I’m not saying he’s a bad man, but he’s the hitting coach on a team that struggles to hit the ball consistantly, and is therefore a prime candidate to be made an example of, and I don’t believe it’s an example. I think it’s a justified decision.
Floyd was not spectacular, he was not dominating and he was not even adequate for a lot of the game… The Twins got themselves out.
The White Sox didn’t 1 hit the Twins as much as the Twins gave Gavin a shot at a No Hitter. The atbats that the majority of this team take a majority of the time are god aweful, and that is a system issue, that is a coaching issue.
I know you can’t come out and agree or disagree without having put yourself on the line, but 17 shutouts last year, 4 so far this year, plus the 1 hitter, and I didn’t count, but we have had 3 games with 14 or more 1 pitch atbats, and tonight was pathetic.
The team’s better than I thought they’d be by a lot, but Joe Vavra hasn’t proved me wrong, and none of the “twins fans” who are sick of my complaining have been able to prove me wrong.
At any point in 2006 did the players say that they were hitting well because Joe Vavra was the hitting coach instead of Scott Ulger? I don’t remember a single article.
Ya i watched the game and the Twins hitting was absolutely horrible! I took a break from studying for finals to watch the game and what a waste of time that was!!!
I took many breaks from studying to watch the Twins during my college years, and as a result my great point average fell below the Punto Line. Don’t do like I did Twinsfan32, study hard and read the box scores in the morning!
[…] Maybe most of the time, but not always. Here’s Twins beat reporter La Velle E Neal III in his blog for the Star Tribune on what he saw: If Gavin Floyd had pulled off a no-no against the Twins on Tuesday it would have […]
bc-So you you were proved right Tuesday night about Vavra.If they get 10 runs tonight,your say it’s a abberation,what untill they go bad again.You can’t be a true Twins fan because secretly you are hoping they fail so you can prove you are right.What’s this right or wrong bs all about anyway? The Tom Hanks baseball character might say ”Their’s no right or wrong in baseball”.If a batter is right 3 out of 10 times,they pay him millions of dollars and put him in the Hall of Fame.Baseball should be a health escape from trevails of the real world.You worry my man!
We need Arnold Schwarzenegger to berate the Twins, “YOU HAVE NO DISCIPLINE!” Our batters allow so-so pitchers like Floyd to feast on their predictible “Just Swing, Baby” policy endorsed by Ronald Gardenhire.
Thank you LaVelle. Couldn’t have put it any better. Twins hitters were awful Tuesday night.
GENO, is Varva your relative? you bristle whenever a criticism about him is made.. look at the facts.. Twin’s offense has stunk for 2 decades.. in recent years they have lead MLB in being SHUTOUT!! the entire organization’s hitting development and philosphy is questionable. I know Pohlad hamstrings the team by not allowing them to draft quality HITTERS at the draft slots they pick the players at, but they can still divert some of the great pitching development talent to hitting so the team is more balanced.
I completely agree with LEN III. Although I don’t think I would say Mauer had a big hit. Yes it broke up a no-no but it was a double with 1 out and the Twins down by 6 runs. It ended the no hitter but did nothing for the end outcome of the game.
By the way, I think it’s time to give Delmone Young a game or two off. His swings are getting worse. Put Monroe out there against Burhle today and give Young the day off.
The strike zone was the size of a micro chip last night, and the Twins decided not to work the count. Instead, they hack away at anything close to the strike zone.
While I’m not a fan of watching Cuddy gaze in admiration at fastballs down the middle of the plate with runners on, I am disgusted at the Twins lack of plate discipline.
What’s a Chi-Sox weakness? Their bullpen, correct? Just like Detroit’s. If we could’ve gotten to their bullpen, it would’ve been interesting. But if you swing and swing and swing, you’re just playing into the hands of the pitcher. Make the guy work!!!!
Irritated.
[…] palpable. The aforementioned cash in our pocket did not afford us the type of view that prompted LEN3 to call the near-event “unjust” but I will say that whatever Floyd was doing extraordinarily well, it wasn’t visible from […]
When going up against a no-hitter why is it considered to be in bad taste to attempt a bunt? Swinging wasn’t working for Gomez and I would have loved to have seen him try to bunt in the 8th inning. Of course DickBert said that was not going to happen because you don’t do that when someone is close to a no-hitter. Does anyone have any good reasoning for this?
The Twins hitting problems are not discipline related (with the noted exception of Gomez who is clueless). Their problem is lack of aggresiveness and deciding before a pitch if they’ll swing or not. Electing to not swing at the firs pitch is one of the dumbest tactics in sport. (With the possible exception of after 2 quick outs and hitter #3 wants to give his pitcher time to rest before going back out.) This is especially true with runners in scoring position. I consistently see the Twins’ RBI buys (Mauer, Cuddy and even Morneau) watch first pitch fastballs go or 1-0, 2-0 fastballs go when they should be jumping on these pitches to drive guys in. This has happened for years and somebody has to be accountable (Gardy, Vavra).
That is funny that you would say that Lavelle, that one manager on Baseball tonight said.
“It was one of the most deserved no hitters he has ever seen … no luck involved”.
RIGHT…
…good analogy for poker players: deciding before a pitch to let it go is like posting blinds in hold’em. You never know when you’ll get pocket aces.
how bout delmon young….what a disappontment so far. he looks lost and no power. hate to say it but he looks less ready than gomez!!!!!!!!
There’s a no-no, and then there’s a “no-no”.
And when a guy gives up a run, is it really a no-no?
“So you you were proved right Tuesday night about Vavra.If they get 10 runs tonight,your say it’s a abberation,what untill they go bad again.”
If that isn’t the perfect description of BC’s attitude, I don’t know what would be. Twins sweep a 5 game homestand, showing impressive offense in tight situations….and BC’s nowhere to be seen.
But then they have a game where they only score 1 run, and the sky immediately is falling again and back they come to cry doom and gloom.
BC’ a one-trick pony. The sooner you can learn to ignore their posts the sooner you’ll be able to actually enjoy the discussions around here.
Every no hitter ever thrown required a little luck. Unless you strike out all 27 batters swinging you got some help somewhere. I agree that Floyd did not look that great last night but then again we only managed 5 hits against him last week.
The Twins have the 3rd highest batting avg in the American league but they lack power, so is Vavra doing his job good or bad.
Midwest= tailgater
midwest= bad weather
midwest= cheap
The Punto bashing may be replaced by Everret bashing soon. Looks very weak at the plate,almost like a little leaguer with too heavy of a bat.Twins sure like utility clones!
Read Aaron Gleeman’s post about Twins players swinging at pitches outside the strike zone. It tells you everything you need to know. This team is so impatient and far to aggresive to ever really succeed. Until they learn how to work the strike zone they will continue to bring up the rear when it comes to OBP.
Would anyone really have been shocked if he got the no hiiter?
We have two hitters batting over .300 Tolbert/Mauer and we dont play Tolbert.
Gomez could go 4 for 4 or 0 for 4 at anytime no one knows whats gonna happen when he bats.
Harris is like 2 for his last 23.
Kuebel has has been cold as ice.
Young has been disapointing
No one expected Everett or Lamb to even get a hit coming into the game.
Tolbert needs to start at 3b or at least see what he can do everyday there. Maybe some time on the bench would do Lamb some good.
hold on jama.. how dare you bring logic and fact and criticize the Twins!! remember T, GENO and other SID SR clones only want positive comments here.. nevermind the many flaws this team has!
“I think the world knows where I stand with the Twins hitting situation”
Get over yourself. The “world” could care less where you stand on anything.
“Joe Vavra hasn’t proved me wrong, and none of the “Twins fans” who are sick of my complaining have been able to prove me wrong.”
Its your job to prove yourself right. (if you could) Anyone sick of your complaining has the option to vomit or just scroll past you. And Joe Vavra doesn’t care what you think, like most Twins fans.
Why would you not replace Lamb with Tolbert?
Tolbert- OBP- .339 SLG- .377 AVG- .302
Lamb—- OBP- .227 SLG- .275 AVG- .209
Oh and Tolbert has a much better glove than Lamb.
Hank,
You must have watched too much baseball . . . with all due respect, it’s “grade-point average,” not “great” point . . .
Don’t ever make a serious point about how Kubel is a later in his career version of pete “inky” Incaviglia and how anything would be better then Kubel or everyone on this blog will put your opinion down. Don’t ever say that Boof should be a MR or a LR or every clone on this blog will make fun of you. Don’t ever say that Everett is a weaker armed version of Punto with a weaker bat or everyone on this blog will make fun of you. Don’t ever say that Mauer is “NO” Mike Piazza at the plate or everyonwe on this blog will make fun of you………
the bright spot was we didn’t get shutout or no hit, so that was a moral victory which is always good for minny sports teams.
with a team that is near last or last in every hitting stat (except ave.) last nights game was not a surprise. the abberation talked about is when we are able to score runs. imo blackburn didn’t pitch as bad as the result, not going to blame the ump, and still overall our pitching is better than expected.
the highlight of the night was punto showing his guns(?) in the pre game show. he seems to be the tv guys pet of late.
there are more opinions about what the hitters (or missers as the case may be) are doing wrong ranging from swinging to much to not swinging enough. truth is we are are a very poor hitting team and have been for over a year.
well said Jimmy Bee and gobbledygookguy!! now let’s read the SID Sr clones chime in!!
Give Floyd a little credit here. He was effectively wild. And his delivery is so funky, Twins hitters just couldn’t tell what was coming. He might not have gotten a called strike on that curve, but he got a lot of guys out with it. And even when he didn’t get it over, it created a thought in their minds that made them late on the fastball.
Most of his outs came on contact. The Twins were hitting him, but they were hitting balls right at people. I saw a lot of good at bats last night that didn’t end in hits. Give the Sox fielders some credit for making tough plays.
I wonder if we were even watching the same game LENIII.
The Punto bashing may be replaced by Everret bashing soon. Looks very weak at the plate
I’ve been wanting Tolbert in the starting SS position since Everett went to the DL. I’ve heard he may not be the best SS the Twins current have (at least defensively)…but I would guess whatever offensive production he can bring to the plate would be an improvement over either Everett or Punto.
At this point, I’d prefer Tolbert starting with Everett going away. I know nobody here wants Punto hitting, but as a defensive sub and a baserunner he’s more valuable than Everett.
And when it comes to positions he can play in a pinch, Everett’s a shortstop. Punto can cover 2nd, SS, 3rd, and a few OF positions if need arises.
Everett/Punto is 08’s version of Tyner/Ford…and ironically enough Everett/Punto is essentially Rodriquez/Punto all over again.
remember T, GENO and other SID SR clones only want positive comments here.. nevermind the many flaws this team has!
Nice try, but I don’t care if people want to complain. I just demand logic and consistancy in those complaints.
Staying completely silent when the Twins are winning five in a row and then returning as though it’s the end of the universe after the first loss following the streak is riddiculous.
And I’ve already said replacing Vavra won’t fix the problem, as the hitting mentality is an organizational problem. The Twins could fire Vavra, but they have a view on hitting…and in their opinion a good hitting coach would be somebody who can teach a style they like.
So essentially, if they fire Vavra…they could very well just hire another Vavra/Ulger.
It’s not the teacher that’s the problem at the moment, it’s the ciriculum. (I know that’s not spelled right)
Who’s BC and why am I suppossed to care?
I have been saying from the begining that Kubel is rated way to high and that Everett was a mistake waiting to happen and that Boof should be in the bullpen. Every time I say this though I get my opinions pushed right in the dirt by the Blog Clones. Oh well…. Lets see those power #’ by Torii’s bating replacement in Young. I saw a great catch by Torii the other day that brought me back to the day’s
PS: I’ve got nothing against jama. Us two share opinions just as often as we disagree.
To the point where we’ve occasionally been accused of being the same person.
That Umpire should be emberassed for last nights game. it was one of the most inconsistant strike zones in all of baseball.
O the differences between last night shortstops was alarming. The White Sox showed what a shortstop with range and an arm can do for a team. He probably stopped at least two hits in that game. And Everett has 0 Range! there was at least 2 hits from last night I bet Nick Punto or Matt Tolbert would have gotten. EVERETT NEEDS TO BE CUT FROM THE TEAM. He’s deadweight
Can somebody tell me how the Twins scored a run without a hit? I saw an error for the Sox (and put that together with Floyd’s unearned run to guess it was involved)
I also saw a few walks….so I’m guessing he walked a few guys in a row, had an error at some point, and Kubel sac’ed the run in?
T,
Mauer walked with 2 out. Then Morneau hit a very hard ball to left field with a lot of hook in it, and the left fielder ran a long way and missed it off his glove. it was very close to a hit, but ruled an Error. Mauer went from 1st to home on the play.
o wait correction
he went from 1st to 3rd on the play and there was only 1 out and then Kubels Sac Fly i forgot about the sac fly sorry
I watch the Twins almost every game with the “Ticket” and I can’t beleive how almost every Twins hitter watches the first ball almost everytime. Is this a team policy?
Thanks Dustin.
AFTER this season, if Vavra ’s totals are one good season (2006) and two bad seasons (2007-2008), then you can fire him because of bad RESULTS.
Before that, he is even - one good, one bad.
But that firing will be because of RESULTS only, not because he is a poor batting coach.
Because none of us on the outside has a clue WHAT he is teaching, IF it is different from the MLB norms, or IF it is inferior in any way to MLB norms.
Paul P says:
May 7th, 2008 at 9:37 am
I watch the Twins almost every game with the “Ticket” and I can’t beleive how almost every Twins hitter watches the first ball almost everytime. Is this a team policy?
first pitch:
Fastball on the outer half of the plate for strike one
well said T - but for my part atleast I am not saying “the sky is falling” chicken little.. the Twins terrible offensive has been well documented and spoken of by LaVelle.. it’s not a new thing it is an organization mindset.. hopefully some self-evaluation will be done and changes made, including hitting coach.. the Twins will never compete with any regularity for World Series unless the org’s hitting approach to drafting,developing,teaching is improved.. The landscape of MLB is such that a complete team needs more then good pitching and DEF to win.. Twins have 4 division titles in 5 years and 1 playoff series win to show for it along with winning 6 out of 21 playoff games
it makes me uneasy to agree with T but the problem hitting wise is orgaization wide.(just kidding T) until they change their approach and draft the best hitters, regardless of cost, instead of who’s cheap to sign the hitting woes will continue. there are no good options in the minors at least short term. maybe the young trade, weather good or bad long term, shows smith is willing to change the approach of pitching 1st 2nd and 3rd to pitching 1st and hitting 1st. get some balance please.
Can anyone please tell me if we were in more playoff games with AJ behind the plate for the Twins or with Mauer
Replacing Vavra is just not the answer. This team cannot hit. The organization has had a history of bringing guys up and it seems Tardy and co. ruin them. Cuddy, Kubel (these were big time prospects who are average to below average at best). Now Tardy wants to go with Go Go at the top of a lineup, and pretend he will make a difference with his .270 OBS. D. Young has been disappointing. He looks like he is years away from becoming a good hitter.
rghrbek - tardy ha ha ha ha
Twins were shutout 14 times in 2006 and ranked 8th out of 14 in AL for runs scored in 2006 and lost 0 -3 to A’s in playoffs I certainly don’t call that a GREAT offensive year for a MLB club.. now granted compared to the horrible offensive performances the team has year after year it is better.. but that bar is set so very low.. let’s not make VARVA hitting coach of the decade just yet..
Who the hell is Varva?
If you can’t spell his name, you can’t fire him.
You’ll screw up his termination paperwork.
Jon- LOL nice
“If you can’t spell his name, you can’t fire him.”
Thank you, Jon!
“Can anyone please tell me if we were in more playoff games with AJ behind the plate for the Twins or with Mauer”
Can anyone please tell me if Dan Gladden or Barry Bonds has more World Series rings?
In 2006, Mauer, Morneau, Bartlett, Hunter, Punto, Cuddyer, Redmond and Tyner all had career years under Vavra.
That makes him (theoretically) responsible for their improvement.
That makes him VERY successful in 2006 under the RESULTS ONLY criteria.
If the Twins were not the best hitting team in MLB that year, then look at the talent level of the team. You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken sh-t!!
1 hit wonders were meant to be heard and not seen.
sorry correction noted and apologies to the VAVRA family
“Can anyone please tell me if Dan Gladden or Barry Bonds has more World Series rings?”
Come on Seth you know that Bonds was only successfull because he had great hitting coaches (with there own special cocktails) his whole career.
T
What are you disagreeing with? I must have missed something. You agree with me but don’t?
LOL Sane your logic is dizzying you say RESULTS is your criteria.. and as I pointed out 8th out of 14 in AL for runs scored and NO playoff game wins in 2006 sound like NON-successful results to me.. just because a few players had career years compared to their overall production (Tyner,Punto) doesn’t make VAVRA a genius.. every squirrel finds a nut once in awhile
http://www.sethspeaks.net/paparazzi.htm
Thank’s Seth and here is a picture of Seth drunk at an American Legion
I just want the Twins to find a middle ground with their offense. Either it seems to be clicking (5 game homestand) or awful (last night).
it could be argued that the hitting successes in 2006 were caused in large part from a carry over of what ulger had done in 2005. as the present hitting coach had more time to implement his style through a full yr in 06 and into 07-08 the results have been on a steady decline.
probably not a good argument but as good as him be solely responsible for the 06 success without being responsible for the later failings.
Do we fire Vavra, a guy that has the Twins BA up to 3rd in the American league. The Twins have zero power though. I don’t know ?????
Has anyone noticed that the Twins are 5-1 since Ulger has taken the helm? Hmm……
what good is batting average if no runs are scored.. Twins historically have had great batting average teams but terrible runs scored.. until number of hits are counted instead of runs it doesn’t matter
What are you disagreeing with? I must have missed something. You agree with me but don’t?
Nothing specifically here. Just responding to another of those “Oh noes a negative opinion T’s going to get pissed at you!” comments.
gobble,
IMO Vavra was not solely responsible for the failures or successes of any of the years.
My point is:
If anyone wants to use the Results Criteria on 2007 results to fire him, then don’t ignore the Results Criteria when evaluating 2006.
what good is batting average if no runs are scored.
Look at Chicago as an example of the importance of averages. If you rely to heavily on power, you can get left high and dry if there’s nobody else around you getting on base.
So you could hit 3 homers in a game, but it’s still only three runs.
Meanwhile a higher average team has more guys on team, and a higher liklihood of a homer scoring 2 or 3.
Look at the Twins a few weeks ago. Chicago hits three homers in a game, but they’re all solo shots. The Twins hit one homer, but had three guys on base already.
That’s why when I look at homerun totals, I’m more curious as to how many runs they scored off homers.
If it’s 10 homers and 10 runs that’s a problem. But 10 homers and maybe 15-20 runs means they’re getting a few with guys on.
exactly!! 2006 results criteria is equally eligible to fire him.. but don’t misunderstand me..the ENTIRE Twins organization has to change in respect to hitting approach.. maybe VAVRA is just teaching what he is told to teach.. where was he hitting coach before? what results did that team produce.. either way hitting coach is directly responsible for major league club players..
The problem with scoring more runs is that the HR is not huge in small ball. If we as a team have the 3rd highest avg in the American league that at least means we are hitting good for an avg. The problem is Power to drive in the men on base. Tough subject because the avg’s are good but run production and Hr’s are low
Has anyone noticed that the Twins are 5-1 since Ulger has taken the helm? Hmm……
Small sample sizes. 
Even Joe Torre (who’s not too bad of a manager) has a career record just over .500.
LOL “So you could hit 3 homers in a game, but it’s still only three runs.”
that’s like saying a walk or single is more important then a HR??? and Twins would be happy to score 3 runs in a game a will!!
For more run production we should have picked up F Thomas when we had the chance.
DOWN,
“exactly!! 2006 results criteria is equally eligible to fire him”
What?
His 2006 results were excellent.
Your point is he should be fired for past success?
What did I miss here?
again sane the 2006 results were terrible compared to reality (shutout 14 times 8 out of 14 teams in AL in runs scored). just because compared to Twin’s usual standards it was slightly higher doesn’t make it excellent.. please post what EXCELLENT 2006 team hitting results there were.. perhaps I pulled the wrong stats.
DOWN,
Excellent results are when seven (Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Hunter, Bartlett, Punto nad Tyner) of the starters improve to have career years.
A coach can only hope to improve the players he HAS.
He can’t get Cuddyer to hit like A-Rod.
He can only try to get Cuddyer2006 to hit better than Cuddyer2005,2004,2003..
He did that.
That is success.
T
The problem with your comparison of the Twins and White Sox is that the White Sox score more runs per game than the Twins. You need to look at OBP instead of just looking at BA.
Vavra was with the Dodger’s prior to the Twins.
Correction:
Success/ excellence using RESULTS as the criteria- which I don’t really believe in.
But that’s the criteria that the fire-Vavra mob wants to use.
“8 out of 14 teams in AL in runs scored”
Now remove the talent factor.
The Twins don’t have a batting lineup like the Red Sox, Yankees, Angels, Tigers, Indians, White Sox, Blue Jays.
NOW evaluate the hitting coach.
DWV:
Your methodology is flawed. In order to get a sense of how Vavra is doing, you need a control group. The best control group we have is the 2005 Twins, who were last in the league in most offensive categories with the same personnel as the 2006 Twins.
Alternatively, you could use the White Sox as a control group. Compare their career numbers against their numbers the last year plus. That might open your eyes a little that, as bad as it seems up here, it could be worse.
Did anyone else notice that Nick Swisher did not touch the base on the play where he was tangled with Blackburn? I must have rewatched that play five time via the Tivo. Morneau had thrown to Everett for the force at second and then Everett fires back to the covering Blackburn and Swish steps on the back of Blackburn’s ankle and his left foot leaps over the base by at least 2.5 feet…neither Dick nor Bert commented on this but rather focused on the possibililty of an injury to the players. Instead of two outs with Dye on third it was one out. The next batter Joe Crede ended up flying out to Delmon Young for the second - or what should have been the final out of the inning. Instead, Uribe singles to score Dye resulting in a 3-1 Sox lead. This may have been the moral killer after the Twins had just scratched out one run in the top of the inning.
Anyone think that Gardy would have pulled our pitcher with a chance for a Complete Game 1 hitter? Ozzie being Ozzie
sane: so what criteria do you believe in, he’s a nice guy so he should keep his job?
isn’t it kind of standard practice to make performance judgements based on results?
our pitching is 5th in runs allowed (137) with the loss of santana, silva and garza imo is very good. we are, however, 13th in runs scored (125) and 14 th in obp so what part of this team is the issue?
sane I cannot get you to read the only results that matter.. runs scored = victories we can debate the career years of the players you mentioned and wallow in that but it would take us off the target.. RUNS SCORED!!! again I will submit VAVRA is part of the problem, changes have to start somewhere.. you can’t suddenly make Pohlad invest the money he needs to so Twins can commit to drafting real hitters(and not picking more pitchers or PUNTO-type hitters that never should have been drafted that high because you need to save money in signing bonuses) and then commit to hiring better/or more scouts that concentrate on evaulating HITTERS it will take some time for an organizational hitting approach change to happen if indeed Billy and CO can acomplish it.. do you agree that there is a organizational problem with hitting and drafting hitters etc?
DOWN WITH VAVRA - 2008!!!! says
I want the Twins to get Chase Utley
its time to release jason kubel…i for one am tired of waiting for this hitting phenom to come around….not only is his hitting so weak and inconsistent, he gives you nothing on defense and has 000 speed…let him go and lets bring up someone new…jason kubel 2008 is nothing more than a total liability…..
mj1 says:
May 7th, 2008 at 11:28 am
its time to release jason kubel…i for one am tired of waiting for this hitting phenom to come around….not only is his hitting so weak and inconsistent, he gives you nothing on defense and has 000 speed…let him go and lets bring up someone new…jason kubel 2008 is nothing more than a total liability…..
I couldn’t possibly agree with you more
gobble,
“isn’t it kind of standard practice to make performance judgements based on results?”
Yes, but judge Vavra on GOOD AND bad results if you have to use results.
I think coaches should be evaluated on the content of what they teach and player evaluation of how well they learned what was taught.
I have been a Head Coach / hitting instructor for over fxxxx years.
Almost every year, we hit the cr-p out of the ball. In some years however, we don’t hit that well. Is it because I am not coaching as well in those years because my IQ had a one year decline?
Ridiculous.
When we hit,its because we have good hitters. When we don’t, its because we don’t.
The results vary with the players.
The results don’t vary with fluctuations in my IQ.
DOWN,
“do you agree that there is a organizational problem with hitting and drafting hitters etc?”
Yes I do.
That is the real problem.
And firing Vavra is irrelevant and does not address that problem.
There also is such a thing as talent to work with and I think that the talent pool that Vavra is working with is not as good as the bigger market teams have to work with. If you want to see where the problem lies look to frgel pants Pohlad. Sorry guys it is not Vavra it may lie in overall talent brought on by a refusal to spend $$$ to compete with other teams
AMEN!!!!! we have agreement!!!! WOOOHOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! I feel like “KING OF THE WORLD!!”
sane says:
May 7th, 2008 at 11:51 am
DOWN,
“do you agree that there is a organizational problem with hitting and drafting hitters etc?”
Yes I do.
That is the real problem.
And firing Vavra is irrelevant and does not address that problem
Is that why that ugly pale little troll Kubel is still on the team
Unfortunately, there is not much hitting help in Rochester. http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080507/SPORTS06/805070349/1007/SPORTS. Maybe Darnell? Is he on the 40 man roster? A career minot leaguer to replace Young? He is the only one that looks to be doing anything exceptional down on the farm.
DWV says:
“look at the facts.. Twin’s offense has stunk for 2 decades..”
Even if that statement is accepted as fact, how do you make it Vavra’s fault for the Twin’s offensive woes of, say, 1993?
I must be missing something on his resume…
MB,
Darnell McDonald had a shot last year.
He couldn’t sniff MLB pitching at that time.
Compare his minor league numbers with Delmon’s.
Now compare his MLB numbers with Delmon’s.
You make the decision.
GBG says:
May 7th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
DWV says:
“look at the facts.. Twin’s offense has stunk for 2 decades..”
Even if that statement is accepted as fact, how do you make it Vavra’s fault for the Twin’s offensive woes of, say, 1993?
I must be missing something on his resume…
Every problem in the world is Vavra’ fault. Nothing can be attributed to a cheap owner that refuses to spend $$$ on the team to be more competetive.
jimmy bee, tell us how you really feel.
Incidentally, that “ugly little troll” is second on the team in HRs and RBIs. He had the only RBI last night.
jimmy bee:
The Twins have plenty of offensive talent on their roster, the payroll is not the issue. (Especially when you consider how young this team is…you’re not going to give a rookie a 6-year 100 million dollar contract)
The issue is that the organizational approach to hitting is forcing the hitters into a type of hitting that may go against their strengths.
“that’s like saying a walk or single is more important then a HR??? and Twins would be happy to score 3 runs in a game a will!!”
Way to not only cherry pick, but to also straw man.
If two teams can both hit the same amount of homeruns, which team is going to come out on top?
Naturally it will be the team that has the additional ability to hit with a high enough average to consistently put runners on.
Solo shots are nice, but in the long run you need guys that can get on base around your sluggers so they’re not just driving themselves in.
Nothing can be attributed to a cheap owner that refuses to spend $$$ on the team to be more competetive.
Well, I guess that was inevitable. Nevermind that Pohlad extended Morneau, Cuddyer, and Nathan.
cmathewson says:
May 7th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
jimmy bee, tell us how you really feel.
Incidentally, that “ugly little troll” is second on the team in HRs and RBIs. He had the only RBI last night.
Only because they give him almost twice as much playing time then Monroe
Only because they give him almost twice as much playing time then Monroe.
I seem to recall Monroe and Kubel being platooned up until Monroe started struggling and Kubel did the opposite.
T he spent $$$ on a Scoreboard that was in the budget to acquire more players with. Next year he will get rid of higher salary’s to get sod for the new stadium. I don’t know with this owner he is kind of flakey
T says:
May 7th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Only because they give him almost twice as much playing time then Monroe.
I seem to recall Monroe and Kubel being platooned up until Monroe started struggling and Kubel did the opposite.
do your research on games played and stats to see what you are talking about with MOnroe and Kubel
I’m looking at the team stats and i noticed something wierd. The A’s and the Twins are very close in almost every offensive category and yet both teams are in first place. How is that possible?
“I’m looking at the team stats and i noticed something wierd. The A’s and the Twins are very close in almost every offensive category and yet both teams are in first place. How is that possible?”
I don’t know…pitching perhaps?
Monroe and Kubel have identical rate stats relative to HRs and RBI. Kubel has 4 HRs and 18 RBIs in 108 ABs. Monroe has 2 HRs and 9 RBIs in 54 ABs. Combined, they are doing better than Morneau. It seems the platoon is working.
Also, in any platoon, the left-handed batter will get roughly two thirds of the at bats because there are many more right handed starters than left handers.
“do you agree that there is a organizational problem with hitting and drafting hitters etc?”
To clarify:
I agree that the organizational problem with hitting IS WITH drafting hitters.
The Twins used to prioritize drafting pitchers and defensive skills first and drafting hitters later.
They also drafted for signability first, baseball skills second.
Low signing bonus demands first, high signing bonus demands (see Scott Boras clients) last.
That is the organizational hitting problem. I highly doubt that they are teaching the wrong batting fundamentals.
They just don’t draft Alex Gordon, Ryan Braun, Ryan Zimmerman, Brandon Wood, Cameron Maybin, Justin Upton, Troy Tulowitzki and Evan Longoria.
You have to teach the hitting approach that your signees can execute with their skill set. (or lack of skills)
Draft better - HIT BETTER.
just put monroe in and tell him, he is the dh and i almost guarantee you will see much better results from him than you will ever see from that troll??lol kubel…another thought on kubel is that he just doesnt ever appear to give a shit about anything…he is an empty uniform…no guts, no fire in his belly, and doesnt seem to care whether he strikes out or hits one out of the park…ill put my money on monroe …..
“I don’t know…pitching perhaps?”
So Pete do you think the Twins philosophy of drafting and trying to acquire as many good arms as possible better then say the Rangers philosophy of going after guys who can blast the ball out of the park?
cmathewson says:
May 7th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Monroe and Kubel have identical rate stats relative to HRs and RBI. Kubel has 4 HRs and 18 RBIs in 108 ABs. Monroe has 2 HRs and 9 RBIs in 54 ABs. Combined, they are doing better than Morneau. It seems the platoon is working.
Look at the batting avg’s for the season
Kick rocks troll you don’t work here anymore.
“just put monroe in and tell him, he is the dh and i almost guarantee you will see much better results from him than you will ever see from that troll??lol kubel…”
I’m interested in what you are basing that on? Monroe is on the wrong side of 30, and had a HORRIBLE season last year, while Kubel should be entering his prime. Even going by career numbers, they are pretty identical to each other, with Kubel getting on base a little bit more, and Monroe hitting for a slightly higher slugging percentage.
Look at the batting avg’s for the season
At this time of the year, batting average is as much about luck as skill. Kubel hits a lot of balls hard right at people. The same thing happened last year. Eventually, he got a lot of those balls into the gaps. It all evens out at the end of the year. But I don’t pay much attention to batting averages. I pay attention to the percentage of good at bats–those where the hitter either made the pitcher throw five or more pitches or hit the ball hard. Kubel is near the top of the team in that category.
Kubel’s stats are that of a twighlight version of Pete Incaviglia. He runs like he has rocks in his shoes. On most clubs he wouldn’t even get that many ab’s. If released guaranteed he would add to the lineup of the Hanshin Tigers of the Nippon Professional Baseball league in Japan along with Leeeeeew!!!!!
“…no guts, no fire in his belly, and doesnt seem to care whether he strikes out or hits one out of the park…”
Sounds more like Young than Kubel.
Kubel’s AB’s are intent to my recollection. Monroe looks — and IS — more athletic. And he’s more emotional.
Does that make him a better hitter? Not according to the stats.
“So Pete do you think the Twins philosophy of drafting and trying to acquire as many good arms as possible better then say the Rangers philosophy of going after guys who can blast the ball out of the park?”
Absolutely. It sure seems to have worked out for them for the past 8 years or so. Since 2000, the Twins have won 688 games to the Rangers 610. Now, I am sure that there are other aspects besides hitting and pitching that go into those records with the unbalanced schedules, but the Twins have won with a pitching and defense based team. The Rangers haven’t won with an offensive based team.
It isn’t all roses. I think the organization can be criticized for holding on to pitching prospects for too long, or even for hoarding them. I really liked the Garza trade for this team; they got offensive talent for their pitching talent. That’s what I think they need to do in order to compete.
First time poster, long time reader. Anybody else sick of watching Gomez bunt with 2 strikes?… Foul ball, OUT!!!!
pete im only basing it on how i feel about somebody, and as far as kubel goes, we have been hearing that same song for the last 3 years -hes comin, hes comin this is his year…let him be, hes been hurt, lalalalal..im am tired of him, period….he has not shown me anything and his personality sucks…..as far as monroe goes i just think this guy can really hit a baseball and ive seem him do it, given the chance kubel has had, i think you would see totally different results…again that is jmho…and i have loved his interviews, as he seems like he is happy to be here and wants to contribute in a big way- he has some fire in him…..thats my story and im stickin to it…
Gee it sure would have been nice to get something in the Hunter trade. What does anyone think we could have gotten for him in a heads up trade.
the next time gomez tries to bunt with 2 strikes, he should be removed from the game immediately whether he is on base or not and made to sit the next game, then he might get the hint….this kids seems to be a bit stubborn about doing things his way..makes me leary of him a bit…
Pete D says: “I don’t know…pitching perhaps?”
Don’t cut BC’s insight short.
The A’s and Twins probably play the game right too. Base running and defense. RISP is part of it too, especially during the winning games.
Of course the question is, Can they do it consistently? Probably not, because no one expects the Twins and A’s to take their divisions.
But it looks like they’ve developed an interesting formula to win. Perhaps they’ll build on it.
I can only assume that Gardy is not giving him the green light in a two strike situation.
If you suck at bunting to begin with, maybe practice a little before trying it in a two strike situation…
What does anyone think we could have gotten for him in a heads up trade.
A couple of top prospects, which is what they will get in draft picks from the Angels as compensation for him–picks 26 and 31.
shaun - how about a swinging bunt not for a strike 3. Watch Ichiro
there were reports that the red sox offered ellsbury for him at last yrs trade deadline and ryan turned it down. crisp was hurt at the time and they weren’t sure what ellsbury had yet and were trying to win now (then). think it may have been on trade rumor didn’t say any other players??? could have been bs.
cmath,
Top prospects are usually better than picks 26 and 31.
Ask Chris Parmelee, Trevor Plouffe, Matt Moses, Denard Span, Adam Johnson, BJ Garbe, Ryan Mills and Kyle Waldrop.
mj1: “i just think this guy can really hit a baseball…”
And the stats say Kubel can really hit a baseball. He’s always been among the top in hitting line drives. So that fact sets everyone up to be perennially disappointed because he produces too many atom balls.
And he’ll never be a superb hitter because of that. But he’s still a good hitter.
Sure, he’s not having a good year at the plaste. But neither is MLB.
IMO
I dont think the Twins can win on a consistant basis without a consistant line-up. Every game no one knows who the hell is going to be starting. No one on this board knows who our starting SS, 3B or DH will be tonight. Thats why you can’t compare sun. vs tues. offensive production, a third of the line-up was different.
And it seems there is no reasoning behind it. Monroe hits hr, Tolbert hits a double and has web gem and Punto has 2 rbi and they all get benched the following game.
gobbledygookguy someone seriously dropped the ball on the Torii deal. To not get anything for him is just plain dumb and the fans deserve to know why a cornerstone of our team left and all we were left with was pocket lint. Someone should fess up either Ryan or BS regarding this. They owe it to the fans. It kills me knowing someone botched this up that bad
So many rants …. I wonder if people would say the same stuff if they had to use their real name????
(yeah, right)
The Twins traded for Gomez & Young, neither of whom worked counts / drew walks before they came here. Every time Gardy talks hitting, it’s about wanting guys to be aggressive, etc. I’d say it’s pretty clear the Twins, as an organization, do not buy into the idea of taking pitches, working counts, being patient, etc.
IMO, it’s an organizational philosophy which has shown it doesn’t work because it results in a lineup full of singles / marginal power hitters who don’t draw walks taking three hits to score one run.
Blaming Vavra for this is like blaming a bus driver for the lousy route he’s stuck with.
Thanks Pete and Romer i think we’re on the same page with this. The Twins seem to buck the trend of every other AL team at least. Ther philosophy of concentrating on pitching and defense first may not be as sexy to watch as the long ball most teams play but in the end it does help them win more games then most of those other teams.
“do your research on games played and stats to see what you are talking about with MOnroe and Kubel”
Monroe and Kubel were meant to platoon. Monroe struggled, Kubel didn’t. Kubel got more ABs.
Gee whiz, didn’t think one needed a rocket scientist to grab that logic.
gobbledygookguy someone seriously dropped the ball on the Torii deal.
If you think the fanbase around here wigged out over Castillo being traded…what do you think would’ve happened had they done the smart thing and traded Hunter?
The Hunter non-trade proved exactly what’s wrong with the logic flung around here.
The Twins tried to please fans by not trading Hunter before July 2007 when they knew they weren’t going to be able to keep him. Now some of those same fans are complaining the Twins were dumb for not trading Hunter.
So then they trade Santana, who they knew they wouldn’t be able to keep, and the fans complain it was stupid to do so.
It’s the no-win situation that always happens when you try and please the fans. Because there are fans that just will force themselves to never be pleased.
Ever.
Gee Whiz T I guess I would rather have a guy hitting .245 then a guy hitting .278 playing. My bad. I will do more research next tijme.
Gee Whiz T I guess I would rather have a guy hitting .245 then a guy hitting .278 playing. My bad. I will do more research next time.
We’re still complaining about Hunter? There are so many current issues to complain about. 
Ask Chris Parmelee, Trevor Plouffe, Matt Moses, Denard Span, Adam Johnson, BJ Garbe, Ryan Mills and Kyle Waldrop.
First of all, I would still count Parmelee and Plouffe as top prospects. Waldrop’s less certain because of injury. But that happens. Span is borderline; the others are flops, I admit. For every one of those flops, I could find you two guys who were drafted at or below that level and are or have been top prospects. In the Twins system, for example, Scott Baker, Jesse Crain, Kevin Slowey, Kevin Mulvey, and Anthony Swarzak were all second-round picks.
USMariner did a study on this. It showed that, since 2000, teams that waited for draft picks did better than teams that traded at the deadline by a three to one margin.
Shawn in Binghamton says:
May 7th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
We’re still complaining about Hunter? There are so many current issues to complain about.
Yes we are still complaining about the Hunter thing. One more new complaint is why did Pohlad put 10 mill into a new monitor for the new park outfield and not into a decent DH 3rdbaseman or SS or how about 1 more inning eating starter
I want to complain about the Twins being in first place. I honestly didn’t expect them to be a .500 team this year and i’m tired of them teasing me like this.
If the Twins use the money they saved this year, by lowering payroll, to sign and pay the top guys available in the draft, then we got better value for Hunter than a 2 month rental would have netted. Will the Twins do this however? probably not
BC of ND says:
May 7th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
I want to complain about the Twins being in first place. I honestly didn’t expect them to be a .500 team this year and i’m tired of them teasing me like this.
Hey BC lets see what happens after the Boston masacre and we still have to get through Chicago. Boy being in first place may not last long if we hit like we did last night for long
jimmy bee, Smith/Pohlad didn’t really have the money until after Santana refused to sign and he was traded.
What “decent DH 3rdbaseman or SS” was available at that time? Or since?
cmath,
Did the USMariner study differentiate between Torii Hunter-level players traded at the deadline compared to Luis Castillo-level and below?
You would get more MLB-ready players for Hunter than you would get in the average deadline trade.
Actually we had a little bit of ching after Torii wouldn’t resign. A monitor for the outfield!! A stinking monitor for the outfield!!
I like to call these series AJ vs Mauer
Mauer 1 hit 2 ab’s
AJ 2 hits 4 ab’s
jimmybee What happens if we sweep the Red Sox? The blogs will be silent and then i’ll be the only one complaining about them out performing my expectations.
I am just happy that 2 Red Sox games will be in ESPNHD, i am not paying 50 dollars more to Directv to get HD baseball. I already pay a HD fee and a baseball fee. Cheap bastards
T - Twins organization does not do things to please the fans.. they try to do things that keep them competitive, short and long term.. Ryan thought he had a shot to keep Hunter and he tried to trade Hunter when he realized he would lose him but according to what org thought getting 2 draft picks was better then the trade offers out there rubes on this blog think much too highly of their sphere of influence on reality
Well being stuck out here on the Left Coast means I never really hear whats going on with the Twins, but I do love coming on here and read about all this stuff. Now I know that we are in first place and that is great, how many of us really would have gone out on a limb at the beginning of the season and said that we would be in first place at any time this year.
Our pitching is gonna only get better as the year goes on, and with any luck at all our bats will start up and least be average to what they should be. If that does happen, and a little luck from the central beating up on each other you never know what can happen.
Go Go Twins,
Fan stuck in California
BC of ND then we will have to wait till Toronto and New York plays them almost right after. I am sorry but if they exceed my expectations I may start getting really into the season only to be shortchanged right at the end as usual
I’d rather be stuck in Cali than Yankeesland Ninja.
“Twins organization does not do things to please the fans”
Read these blogs and tell me what the Twins could do to please all the whiners and bitchers.
If my dog whined and bitched that much, I would have him fixed.
At least that would please my neighbors.
My bad. I will do more research next tijme.
Good for you. May I suggest the first place you look is under “Sample Size” ?
“One more new complaint is why did Pohlad put 10 mill into a new monitor for the new park outfield and not into a decent DH 3rdbaseman or SS or how about 1 more inning eating starter”
Here we go again…”Oh man! That cheap Pohlad is making the public fund his stadium!”
…”Oh wait! He put his own money into it? That cheap Pohald is putting money into the stadium instead of into the team?”
And so on and so forth unto infinity.
jon, it didn’t work on my dog…. but he is named after Gomez…
As far as the Boston series goes…I’ve said it already and I’ll say it again.
The Twins have played well within the division, but poorly outside of it. That’s what’s going to cost them a playoff spot in the long run.
And even if they manage to fend off the rest of the division, a poor record outside of the division doesn’t give me much hope they could make much headway in the playoffs this year.
But it’s still early. Let’s worry about consistantly above .500 before we start getting this year’s playoff roster together.
And let’s also not decide in May if the Twins are buyers or sellers.
jon, it didn’t work on my dog…. but he is named after Gomez…
If that’s the case, I’m surprised you were able to catch it.
T,
thats a good one. I called him out after a 2 strike bunt and snuck up behind him.
T Just remember that it is everyone else’ fault except tightwad’s. I have heard that it is players faults, to Gardy’s fault, to Vavra’s fault, to this fault, that fault, and the other guys fault, but never tightwads. It is not a level playing field if an owner is only willing to spend minimal amounts of $$$ on the team while other teams are 3 X our payroll.
Shawn I guess you showed him how to take balls?
thats even better.
Jon my point exactly management doesn’t read this blog to determine their every move, so rubes need to stop with the notion “Ryan tried to please the fans!” nonsense Pohlad hamstrings this team and Ryan and the rest of the staff now Billy Smith have tried to do all they can to keep the team competitive.. which means stock pile pitchers in draft(cheaper then hitters) and focus on developing pitching and DEF.. which will keep the tream competitive but will never make the Twins any threat to win a playoff series let alone challenge for World Series
BC of ND - “Chopper sick balls”!!!
When you have dogs named “Viking” & “Gomez”, they think you are swearing at them alot.
Minnesota sports fans are the only ones i have ever heard called rubes. I have never heard it about local fans everywhere else. Is it because of Kfan?
where is Binghamton?
NY State….. AA Mets are here
So, some of you are denying that having a smaller payroll and not ever trading for or signing a player getting paid good money has no effect on the quality of the team fielded?
Refusing to sign or trade for a DH from 2001-2007 was just a baseball decision, and had nothing to do with money?
Shawn in Binghamton - interesting city when I googled the place. Some picture about hot air baloons and something about a university there
why is a NYer on a MN website?? is this really HANKY!!!
Maybe he is Minnesota native that moved. I moved to here and I still check out the LA times
jama,
The USSMariner study just focused on players, such as Ichiro, of Hunter’s caliber. I think there were something like 18 deadline deals over 7 years at this level and only three returned anywhere near the value of two late first-round picks. I looked for the link and couldn’t find it. Anybody?
So Shawn how is that other Mets prospect doing? I think his last name was Rodriguez. The one they said the Twins really wanted.
He would have to be a Minnesota native to even care about the Twins while living in between Boston and New York
Hey did you guys know that Jason Varitek was the second first round pick for the Twins the year they drafted Hunter? He didn’t sign though and went back to college for his senior year.
Varitek wanted more money then Twins could offer?
mike wants wins,
“just a baseball decision, and had nothing to do with money?”
The money issue does not assure failure on the field, but it does prevent “trading for or signing a player getting paid good money”.
This makes success on the field more difficult and the Twins have to hope their players can produce AFTER their development but BEFORE they can ask for big money.
The Twins, A’s and Marlins have done well with that plan, but can never be consistent contenders like the Red Sox and Yankees who use a better plan that the Twins can’t (won’t? - different discussion) use.
Mark Cuban should buy the Twins.
Red Sox and Yanks have started building though the draft.. but because they can afford the proper players at the positions they pick they get the best players with the best development.. once again Pohlad pretending to be poor(he is richest owner in MLB) while he collects MLB corporate welfare
I am a MN kid and hope to move back someday. As far as F-mart… he is doing ok, nothing special. It was good to see Luke Hughes play last week, even though it was freezing cold and rainy.
F-mart thats the guy thanks.
Hey can we change Carlos nickname from Go Gomez to CarGo like CarGo fast or CarGo should be put on a ship and sent back to the Domincan Republic?
BC,
he is the B-Mets big draw, but from what i have seen, he’d be at least 2 years away if in the Twins system. I bet the Mets call him up this year if they keep having injury problems though.
twins will still be lucky to win 81 games this year
not coaches fault they dont have talent hence there payroll 54mill
Sorry folks, Benecke is right. The stats bear him out. Our hitters have raw talent and that will shine through. But over time Vavra’s proven a far less that acceptable hitting coach. While 2006 was “great” as someone put it, they seem to be missing the point that the hitters sucked it up BIG TIME until June, then when they got to the playoffs they CHOKED on mediocre pitching (unless someone wants to argue that Barry Zito’s actually a good pitcher). So that’s 2006. Let’s see, what’s next? 2007. Oh, yeah, we sucked offensively, tied the record for shutouts against. Offense was in the very bottom of MLB stats in all categories. Next? 2008. We’ve scored 3 or fewer runs in 15 of our 31 games thus far - nearly 50%. That’s just not going to cut it in the big leagues. We’re on pace to underperform our terrible offensive season in 2007. We’re on pace to actually SMASH the shutout against record.
The case against Vavra is VERY strong, and the case against the whole hitting system employed by the Twins (the same system that send Big Papi away shaking his head because we wouldn’t let him swing for the fences) is only slightly less strong. I’d argue that Vavra is a really bad hitting coach in a flawed hitting system. The actual facts prove BC Beneke correct - he has nothing to prove for himself.
My issue isn’t necessarily the issue of not signing expensive FAs, or trading for high priced players in general. It is being 1-2 players away, not being willing to do anything about that. Even a medium quality hitter at DH would have made those Twins’ teams much, much better.
Who do we Blame for 2005? Vavra wasn’t the coach yet.
24rick- Yeah, if we had a $200 million payroll, we could be playing as well as the Yankees.
BC,
“CarGo should be put on a ship and sent back to the Domincan Republic?”
Xenophobic comment?
Kidding,
but would you say that about Neshek?
Dean,
Say goodnight to BC before you turn over and go to sleep tonight.
Beside “Big Papi” (who was “Big Sloppy” while with the Twins), what other hitter has left the Twins to become a power hitter elsewhere.
Big Sloppy was an aberration because he was always injured while with the Twins.
Tolbert and Punto starting tonight.
jon Casey Blake and AJ
jon says:
May 7th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
BC,
“CarGo should be put on a ship and sent back to the Domincan Republic?”
Xenophobic comment?
Kidding,
but would you say that about Neshek?
I hate to say it but i’m like most Twins fans i have a love/hate thing with all the Twins players so if Neshek blows up again i’ll say take your submarine approach and sail away.
I’d blame Scotty Ulger for 2005? That and the Twins hitting system?
Injuries or not, Big Papi was NOT allowed to swing for the fences with us. It’s been demonstrated ad nauseum.
jon, your “say goodnight” comment, wow, that’s classy, dude. Didn’t know that people weren’t entitled to an opinion that’s statistically verifiable. Heh.
Well, ya’ll keep routing for Joe Vavra and the Twins approach to hitting. As you can see it’s been VERY successful in getting us to the WS. Have fun with that, suckers! Sheesh!
send Neshak back to brooklyn park
If it is the system, why fire Vavra?
If anyone ever wanted to hear a much better broadcaster then bumbling Dick and Bert they should listen to Vin Scully. Now there is an announcer
Tolbert, Punto, Redmond, Monroe starting. I guess they cant do much worse than a one hitter.
Dean,
I apologize for the “say goodnight” comment. I was way off base.
Only to add that “Vavra is a really bad hitting coach” is not “statistically verifiable” by results only. (which are mixed)
I’m suprised that within the entire Twins orginization, with all the so called baseball people they employ, that not a sinlge one of them realizes that what Dean and Bennecke are saying is correct. Joe must Go. We need a scapegoat and your number is up Joe.
BC of ND - Joe “overrated” Mauer / Say it aint so Joe and BC
“Didn’t know that people weren’t entitled to an opinion that’s statistically verifiable. Heh.”
Perhaps if it were statistically verifiable that Joe Vavra’s coaching has much of an affect at all on the scoring, more people would agree with you. But statistically proving coaching ability is going to be pretty near impossible.
I would assume that the reason the Twins don’t score a lot of runs has WAY more to do with the offensive talent they have, and less to do with Joe Vavra. The Twins are a small market team. They don’t have the payroll to compete with the likes of Boston, New York, and Anaheim. So, as such, they need to decide where to spend the money they have. They chose to spend it on developing pitchers and good defensive players. Meaning, they don’t have the resources to spend on the offensive talent.
I guess my point is - how do we know that Vavra isn’t doing his job? Perhaps Cuddyer only hits .250 under a different batting coach? Morneau only hits 20 homers. Gomez has an OBP of .250 under someone else. So, really, the only way we could know is if we took this team and gave them a different coach, and saw how they responded. Which is what the Twins did when they switched from Ullger to Vavra, and the team seemed to respond in a positive manner.
I love baseball stats. Adore them. But you can’t try to apply them to everything. Trying to do a statistical study on the effect of coaching is not going to work very well, because it is so hard to isolate just one coaches’ impact on a player.
No jimmy you can’t cut the Golden Boy i meant Joe “hole in your bat” Vavra.
Young couldn’t carry Torii’ jock
I have to agree with many of the messages posted on this blod. Yes it bothers me to watching Twin hitters looking at rather than swinging at a first in the zone. They might get lucky, I have seen it done manytimes before with different teams and with some success, so why can’t our guys do that to……
BC Can our players move up to a metal softball bat or possibly even a tennis racket to hit with.
Fastball strike on the outer part of the plate!!! I would love to see an umpire who is very annimated out in public. Can you imagine them in a bar doing that strike 3 ring them up move right in the middle of a bar. That would be crazy awesome
Imagine when an umpire eats at a restaurant and they disagree with the check and the waiter comes up and the umpire does the strike 3 move and rings them up. That would send them away running
“Monroe and Kubel have identical rate stats relative to HRs and RBI. Kubel has 4 HRs and 18 RBIs in 108 ABs. Monroe has 2 HRs and 9 RBIs in 54 ABs. Combined, they are doing better than Morneau. It seems the platoon is working.”
cmat,
If Kubel and Monroe were 100% platooning this would be true, but both Kubel and Monroe were often in the lineup when Cuddyer was on the DL.
Morneau averages a HR every 18.8AB and RBI every 4.5AB, whereas Kubel and Monroe average a HR every 27AB and RBI every 6AB. So Morneau’s production is roughly 50% higher than Monroe and Kubel combined.
Twins shut some of you up tonight. Much better performance.
No (again), jimmy bee (at 2:22). That ching of change was being held to sign Santana.
When that priority failed, there was money available. But for who? (I ask again)
In the wake of Livan’s complete game, some food for thought for my fellow Twins fans:
3.83, 4.80 - Livan’s ERA, and his ERC - his component ERA, what his ERA really should be based on the number and type of hits he’s given up.
He might not be Ramon or Ponson, but he’s not going to keep this up.
Matt, he shouldn’t have been able to do it at all. He’s already proved many people wrong on that. I liked the signing, but didn’t expect this well. He, like every pitcher, can lose it at any time. We’ll just have to hope that it never comes. Great job pitching so far- not to mention the fact that the Twins hit like crazy when he’s on the mound.
I have officially stopped (at least for a while) not dreading Punto AB’s. He’s not tearing the cover off the ball, but he has done MUCH better than I, and most of you, expected of him so far. He’s bought some time with me, as has Mr. Joe “GIDP” Mauer. He’s also done very well and, most importantly, stayed healthy so far. Stop, at least temporairly, bashing Punto. Not an everyday player, but doing very well for a back up- for Punto at least.
About the One hitter- yes, the Twins hitters were God-awful that night. I would have told them not to swing at anything before they had 2 strikes, because I’m not convinced that the umpire would have rung anyone up. Hope we never have that guy again as he was Terrible. On the plus side, the Twins had won 5 straight, and were bound to lose sometime soon. I also thought, after a night like that, the twins bats, at least for one night, would come very alive- which they did.
Lastly, props to Gomez for hitting the cycle. That guy is amazing to watch. Actually like having him more than Santana, and to extent of which I can’t really explain, Hunter.
Number of comments: 225
Number of comments expressing displeasure with the Twins offense: 158
Score of last night’s game: 13-1
Twins record in the last seven games: 6-1
What is wrong with you people?!
If we score 50% of games with 4 or more runs, and 50% of games with 3 or fewer runs, which is about what we’re doing this year and did last year, then we’ll be hard pressed to even play .500 ball. Last year being exhibit A. I don’t care if 50% of our games line with 13 runs. We’re still not going to the world series if the other 50% are 3 or fewer run games.
Re: attributing statistically poor hitting to a hitting coach, it’s absolutely real. When a batter is in the box he’s not swinging at whatever he wants. He’s taking signs from the hitting coach and other staff about when to swing, how to swing and at what to swing and where to ideally place the ball. Each at-bat is as much a product of the hitting coach as it is the batter. If the batter ignores instructions and gets a hit, great! Doesn’t always happen, they typically follow orders (and for good reason). The game’s played more strategically than each player just getting up and swinging for the fences each time. Therefore offensive statistics are EASILY attributable to the hitting coach. Their job doesn’t happen just in the batting cage. It continues when the game starts.
If the Twins begin to score 4 or more runs in, say 65 - 75% of their games, and maintain that rate over the length of the hitting coaches time in job, then it’s a good hitting coach. If not, and with Vavra that’s the case, then it’s time to adjust.
Is the Twins overall hitting system the fault of Vavra? No, but even within that system he’s a poor performer. Firing him won’t change the system, but a better hitting coach (can anyone say Molitor, Oliva or Carew?) will increase our chances of both performing better and changing the overall system. Vavra seems to completely buy into the system, as evidenced by the signs he gives to hitters from the bench.
Happened to be in Chicago on business, and caught the game in person (row 34, dead behind the plate). LEN III has it exactly right: Floyd justmissed throwing the worst no-hitter ever, and he was aided and abetted by overanxious bats. Look! A pitch! I’m hacking! At Ball One! And popping up harmlessly!
Which was then followed by Wednesday’s massacre of Buehrle. Ahh, baseball.
I see some fans were lucky enough to see the great Rincon pitch again last night.
Remind me why he’s still with the Twins.
