Your Thursday a.m. talker
Posted on January 25th, 2007 – 9:50 AMBy Michael Rand
In the past three months, three coaches in major sports in this market have been fired (Dan Monson, Glen Mason, Dwane Casey). Stretch it to 13 months, and you get to four coaches (Mike Tice). That’s quite a stretch. We’re not sure where it ranks historically with other markets, but that’s a lot of coaches gone in a short amount of time. So, some questions:
1. How important is a head coach to the overall success of a particular team, and is it different based on college/pro?
2. Looking back at the four who were fired, which one got the rawest deal?
3. Do we live in a peculiar market in which demands a certain type of coach than other places would? We only ask that because some of the most well-liked coaches in recent memory here project/projected very little egotism (Ron Gardenhire, Flip Saunders), while some of the best coaches of all-time tend to project an air of cockiness. Saunders and Gardenhire won their share of games, but they also have come up short in the postseason. So: If forced to pick between two qualities, would Minnesotans rather have a coach they liked than a coach who wins?
25 Responses to "Your Thursday a.m. talker"
As a fan, I’d rather have a coach I like than one who wins.
See, Gardy still wins, it’s just that the baseball playoffs are so unpredictable. It’s actually an accomplishment just to make the playoffs, unlike other sports.
Tice got the rawest deal.
here is an interesting article on garnett buying the wolves:
http://www.nysun.com/article/47342?page_no=2
Casey got the rawest deal. I think that the Wolves want to be able to go after Flip after Detroit lets him go. And before the U snatches him up. Now it wont look so bad when they do.
Who cares? I mean really - let’s stop our obsession with sports in America and concentrate on other more important things!
the university of minnesota has had a losing program for so long that it has become acceptable. no successful program would allow and pay…for the results generated by mason and monson. at the college level, it’s imperative to be a great recruiter…..MN has and continues to lose a great deal of talent out of state. this has to end.
Dwane Casey because they didn’t give him enough time. Also because he’s a good son
Probably Tice. If he didn’t try to be adored by the sociopath Moss, who knows how far his team would have gone
1. Head coaches are the CEO of their teams, in that they are ultimately responsible for the success or failure of the team and must be held accountable for such. This is true at all levels - college, pro, high school, whatever level you can name.
There are differences between college and pro coaches, however. We can see the difference in the two most recent firings - Dwane Casey and Glen Mason.
Mason was responsible for not only coaching the players, but for bringing them in as well. He was also the main “face” of the program. In pro terms, he was not only the head coach, but the GM, the owner, and every player that talked to the media after the game. Mason had total control over the success of the Gopher football team.
Dwane Casey, on the other hand, was just the head coach. He had only partial control over the success of the team, and thus is only partially responsible for the overall success and failure of the Timberwolves.
College coaches almost always are completely responsible for the success of their particular teams; pro coaches are almost never completely responsible (unless, in true Tuna style, they’re allowed to both “shop for the groceries” and “cook the dinner.”)
2. Because of the levels of responsibility described in my answer to #1, we can say that the rawest deals belong to Casey and Mike Tice. Both were held completely accountable for something they had only partial responsibility for. I’d say Casey got a rawer deal than Tice, only because he was held accountable for failings that were mostly the responsibility of others (Kevin McHale, we’re looking in your direction).
I’d argue that, should a collegiate coach be fired based solely on results, they can NEVER get a raw deal. When you have complete responsibility, you must face complete accountability.
3. I would say that Minnesotans do want to know that our coaches (and players) like it here, like us, and want to stick around. However, I think Minnesotans can be comfortable with coaches and managers who aren’t necessarily the most well-liked person in the room. For example, neither Bud Grant nor Tom Kelly was known for Gardenhire- or Saunders-style likeability, yet both are revered by fans for the success they brought to local teams.
For the most part, I think Minnesota fans will follow the coaches who win, or the coaches who are well-liked. A great example is with the Gopher hockey team. Doug Woog couldn’t win the big one, but he’s almost universally loved by Gopher fans because he’s a former Gopher All-American, an incredibly nice guy, a complete homer broadcaster, and he kind of looks like a kindly old gnome. Don Lucia, on the other hand, is a nice guy but is not particularly known for it. Yet he is also universally revered - for winning two national titles.
What we can’t stand, as Minnesota fans, is the guys who don’t win and are dislikeable. See Denny Green. See Brad Childress. See Glen Mason.
If we had to pick, however, I would say that Minnesotans (like almost all sports fans) would rather just win. Give us Don Lucia behind the bench and Doug Woog in the press box, if that’s what it takes.
Go Dwayne Schnitzius!
Tice getting a raw deal?
He time and time again made meathead decision, had no control over any of his team, made dunder-head decisions on Sunday which cost games, got busted for scalping tickets, had the LoveBoat scandal underneath his reign (again, no respect from his players), repeatedly made an a$$clown of himself in the media, was outcoached weekly and was underqualified as a head coach.
Casey by far had the rawest deal. Tice deserved to be fired…is Childress any better? Not so far…and that’s not a good level to be on.
Doug Woog is universally loved now, because he’s not the coach anymore. Late in his coaching tenure, though, he was anything but universally loved.
Flip Saunders was only well-loved in this town because he went to school at the U. If he had gone to school at Indiana, he would have faced the scorn he so richly deserved for underachieving as long as he did.
Dwane Casey gets the raw deal award in my book because not only was he given poor talent to work with by McHale, but forcing him to accept his successor-in-waiting Randy Wittman on the coaching staff this year only subverted his authority further. A guy can only coach so long with the Grim Reaper looming over his shoulder.
Coaches are very important. I take my recent experience coaching girls basketball. Now the first few practices were strictly skill teachings where the girls dribbled right hand, left hand, passed, shot using the backboard, did a proper layup, hands up defense, etc. Then it was week 4 and my plan to implement the pick and roll offense. I knew the other teams would not do this drastic offense. I knew if we had a killer pick and roll we would whip the other teams. I along with my assistant explained and showed the pick. We explained the roll. The first girl tried and tripped on her shoelace. BENCHED! The second tried and got run over by the defender. BENCHED! The 3rd and 4th were playing patty cake. My daughter who was dribbling wanted to come up with a team name. I could not take it anymore and found that you cannot teach first and second graders the pick and roll. I scrapped it and then we got into the schedule and it was mass chaos all over the court. Its all about coaching my friends.
As long as your coach, AD/GM & owner/university president want the same things out of the program. I’m not just talking about winning but believing in all of the blocking and tackling aspects on how to get there, any coach can succeed.
A coach/program struggles when people jump off the reservation and pursue their own agenda.
For someone like Mason, his .500 records were probably as a result of clashes with Maturi over certain elements.
And for all of the things that he did, when you recruit kids that academically can’t cut it, that eventually shows up and can mess up your program’s continuity.
Communication is the key in any successful program.
Easy…coach that wins. If the team is winning, everyone is too wasted celebrating to care how nice the coach is. Id let Satan coach if he won us a championship in something!
I think Casey’s firing was unfortunate. He had a subpar team playing .500 ball. The team was inconsistant, but that’s because talentwise Minnesota is a lottery team. Now once McCants comes back and Randy Foye gets a season or two to mature, we will have a competetive team. I think Casey did a tremendous job with the low talent that we had. Maybe Whittman is a better choice, but they shouldn’t have let Casey go mid-season. The real one who needs to be fired is Kevin McHale. His decisions have been erratic at best.
After one has time to reflect lets start from the bottom most deserved and go from there.#1 Monson why? It was pretty obvious after the 2nd. season that he was not getting the job done. In my lifetime 50+ years the coach at Minnesota has never had a problem getting good players to come to the U of M. Lets go back to the 60’s when we had Lou Hudson, Archie Clark & co. then to the 70’s we go w/Mussleman, next comes the likes of Mchale, Thompson & Ray Williams, Next is Randy Bruer, Tucker & co. Then comes the Clem Haskins era and a trip to the Final Four. Then it is Monson who shows up and all of a sudden we are having all campus trouts and are even asking the water & ball boys if they want to dress up so that we can have practices. What a Joke! All the while you are letting a team like Wisconsin pass you by w/out even seeming to notice or care, what’s this all about. #2 Mr. Mason recruiting never really seemed to be his biggest problem why just take a look at the long list of players who are in the NFL today. He was to put it simply a terrible game coach. How many times would his teams get beat in the 2nd. half mainly the 4th. qtr. They would have meltdown after meltdown w/little or no explanation and certainly no accoutability for the continued collapse. Lets put it this way he never lost alot games because the other guy had more talent than he did. #3 Mike Tice, yes I was one of his biggest critics and was also one of the happiest guys on the planet the day he was fired. But boy, was I ever wrong on this one. Because I will tell you what after a year of/with Mr. Childress, Mike Tice has never looked so good and yes so qualified. #4 Mr. Casy lets face it he was not really qualified to be an NBA head coach in the 1st. place maybe in the WNBA???? Mr. Mchale has to and should take sole responsibility for this one. After he fired his supposed long-time friend Mr Sanders he was depressed and deperate for a head coach, so guess what just like some of his draft choices over the years he had/did a knee jerk reaction and that was to hire someone like Mr Casey who was obviously both surprised and shocked. It is most obvious to me after all of these years that the powers to be both professionally and collegiately, really must not care whether they will ever really field a consistently good and respected team in in each of there respective sports. And that ladies and gentlemen is SAD.
1. The head coach is important but is only one facet of the team. You still win with players and if you don’t have the right players, then no coach can be succeessful. The coach has some input in drafting, buying or recruiting the right players but it still comes down to who puts the best athletes out there. The coaching is an intangible.
I truly believe that coaching makes the biggest difference at the college level because the coach has more input on the personnel obtained. Also, the coach is more of a motivator, too. At the pro level, the athletes should be motivated already to just tbe able to get drafted and stick with a team (especially in sports where contracts are not guaranteed). However, before I stick the other foot in my mouth, how many times have we seen pro athletes sign the big contracts and coast after that?
Regarding popularity of coaches and players, when’s the last time you saw someone walking around sporting a coaches “jersey”?!
2. Both Mike Tice and Flip Saunders got raw deals but they both should have seen it coming to some degree.
With Iron Mike, new ownership generally brings new management (and new coaches). With the pro level becoming corporate, this is what corporations do with new ownership. Now that the rose colored glasses are off (and broke), the game has become a business - get used to it.
However, Flip was the one that let himself get really screwed by trusting his buddy McHale. The Iron Ranger threw Saunders under the bus rather than admit his own shortcomings (right, Duane Casey?). After the Joe Smith debacle, Flip should have been looking elsewhere. Instead, he trusted his friend to be accountable. Good luck with all that. I feel for Randy Wittman right now and he should use this opportunity for a springboard to coach elsewhere next season where ownership and management has their act together, unless the team is sold or McHale retires (he won’t quit).
3. I think this market has changed and is tired of mediocrity. Most people would rather have a coach who wins. Winning, like parenting, isn’t a popularity contest. Sure, it’s nice to be liked or popular but does it get the job done? If not, then you have to go with what’s effective.
So, give me a coach that wins (Bill Belicheck, Bobby Knight, etc.) over a mediocre nice guy anytime. besides, to paraphrase a line in my first comment, when’s the last time you asked a coach for an autograph over a player?
Flip didn’t get screwed, not at all. First off, remember that for most of his time here with the Wolves, Flip shared personnel reponsibilities with McHale. Then, there’s the issue of Flip’s coaching, where he never lifted the Wolves above what they should have done. Not once was Flip able to engineer a first round upset in seven tries, and lost in the Western Conference Finals after amassing the best record in the Conference in the regular season. Flip isn’t a genius, he’s an average NBA head coach, as is being proved in Detroit right now.
As for Randy Wittman, I don’t feel for him at all. He knows better than anybody how this organization works. The fact of the matter is that this is the only NBA head coaching job he was going to get after his dismal two year tour in Cleveland.
As a 50 year old vikings fan I have lived through all the ups and downs of the viking history. I remember when Bud didn’t say- much but Sid did. I remember the “New Sheriff–Denny Green”when he came to town.He was in charge…. remember.
Tice was my favorite of all. I really got into football more than ever,looked forward to his radio shows. Stay up later than I should have on Sunday evenings because as a sports nut -I could get a feel for what is going on the field and in the locker room.
Now we the public have been pushed back into the closet again. We the fans don’t need to know anything like the “NEW Sheriff Denny Green” told us when he said “Don’t you worry about the Football Team’.
So now the new era. Like Denny said you don’t have worry about the football team. But Mr. Wilf you need to include people like me if you want a new football stadium.
I want Big mouth Mike Tice back. The new coach has’nt done any better with his “NEW Sheriff attitude. And we the fans only need to know one thing. Mr. Wilf wants our “MONEY!
Coach Childres please talk to us alittle.. tell us about the Kick Ass Offence.And how a once super bowl quarterback could’nt take it anymore. But kept his mouth shut about you.
As far as I’m concerned Mike got the raw deal.
Thanks,
Tom Nightingale
1- Tice,got a raw deal. The U of M in
its arrogance screwed up on several
accounts. Tice, essentially had a
degree, acquired in the real world, and
if necessary coulf have been given an
honorary degree and been acquired by the U of M as coach, even if the
Vikings screwed up.
2-the U’s real problem is administration
and how they write contracts which should be for one year and renewable only if performance warrants it. There should be no need for buyouts. The administration and the Board of Directors should be called to task for
wasting taxpayers money and the Govenor
should be held accountable for increasing allocations to the U.
3- Mason should have been let go a long
time ago. Although a good enough recruiter, he was a lousy game coach.
Ohio State must have rejoiced each time the thought about passing him over. It must be kept in mind that going away to
college is part of the college experience and Mn should be getting
other upper north central players as
well as some from elsewhere, but should
pass when “criminals” are being recruited.
4-its a wonder the citizens of MN really
don’t get together and straighten out
the U’s administation and athletic
program and emphasize something more
important, its no wonder education costs are rising the way college
economics are screwed up and governments,federal and state are not
helping.
RV
I gotta go with Casey getting the rawest deal….imagine if you will: You start a new job. It’s a big jump in pay and responsibility from your last job…but you’re ready to jump in and show everyone what you can do. What you walk into, however, is chaos created by your incompetent boss (wait a sec, this really IS starting to sound like my job!)….you spend the first few months learning the job, getting to know names and faces, and generally how everything works in the office and in the business. Then you start making strides in fixing the mess that you had been given. You’re not setting the world on fire, but you’re slowly but surely making progress…..and just when you start getting your head above water, your incompetent boss makes one of his lackeys your “assistant” while evaluating your work as substandard because he has given you so much to work with. And the second you have a bad week? Yup, you’re fired. Would any of us work under these conditions? Not likely….but that’s what Casey dealt with everyday here and it’s a shame that he’s been ousted in favor of an incompetent boss and his lackeys.
That’s my take on the whole thing anyway.
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