Mailbag: Bad parking, ‘cheap’ gas, a doomed freeway and more
Posted on May 23rd, 2008 – 6:05 AMBy Roadguy
First, a little something from alert reader Coco:
Thought you might enjoy this beautiful example of parallel parking I found outside my apartment:
Good grief — that’s pretty exceptional. Given the cost of gas, maybe the driver decided to stop right there to save fuel.
There’s also the possibility that the person holds the contrarian view that gas prices aren’t that high — alert reader Matty found a story in Slate titled “Gasoline is Cheap.”
Alert reader BarryS, meanwhile, directs our attention to this USA Today story about freeway removal — Oklahoma City is the latest to join this urban trend. Roadguy was thinking that the Twin Cities largely escaped the elevated-freeway boom back in the day, but BarryS notes a couple of examples:
Oklahoma City is doing something that I wish would happen in the North Loop — removing the highway and replacing it with a park and a boulevard. I’d like to see the I-94 viaducts in the North Loop removed, and 3rd and 4th streets become connecting thru streets.
That’s the catch with elevated roadways — they can be handy to drive on but are unpleasant to live near.
Finally, I got an e-mail from a P.R. firm for Verizon Wireless that offered tips on phone usage in the car; you can view the list here. My favorite was this:
Do not engage in complex, stressful or emotional calls while driving.
Roadguy notes that it’s not so great to have such conversations with your passengers, either.
May your Memorial Day weekend be full of pleasant chatter — and entirely moron-free.
71 Responses to "Mailbag: Bad parking, ‘cheap’ gas, a doomed freeway and more"
Maybe not so much “moron-free,” but a transportation oxymoron?
35E through St. Paul is 45 mph (Does anybody know the reasoning for this, and if there are extended stretches of freeway in other cities with such a low speed limit?)
I noticed that the southbound lane from at least Ayd Mill Road (where I got on) to the river has been repaved with some nice smooth blacktop.
The oxymoron: Wanting to keep this freeway at 45 mph while upgrading it into a dragstrip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_35E_%28Minnesota%29 has a decent writeup on why the speed limit on 35E is 45mph. Basically the neighborhoods banded together and demanded the lower speed limit and a ban on trucks.
I’m with BarryS 100% about removing the elevated freeways in the North Loop area and returning 3rd and 4th streets to through streets.
“That’s the catch with elevated roadways — they can be handy to drive on but are unpleasant to live near.”
No need to limit this statement to elevated roadways. That’s true of any mid to high capacity roadway.
For years, whenever people complain to me about “high gas prices” I have always told them to stop complaining until gas reaches $7 a gallon.
Verizon should suggest that people don’t use their phones at all while driving. But Verizon would lose a lot of money as I am sure most cell customers use their phones most while in the car–they would never go over their minutes if they didn’t talk while in traffic!
I saw that same story about freeway removal the other day, but got too lazy to send it in.
A few years ago, I started telling people that I saw this country turning urban sprawl inside out. Of course, at the time I thought it would be due to drive times. Turns out it will be due to gas prices.
The elimination of freeways is just the next step in that process. When affluence moved out, they built freeways to get what they wanted (the urban city), while keeping the less affluent away (by forcing them into the urban core). Now it’s reversed. Gentrify the core, send the poor to the suburbs and tear up the freeway so they can’t come back into our area.
I may be dreaming here, but I think it’s merely a matter of time for the 3rd and 4th street freeways before they’re gone. With the new Twins Ballpark going up a block away, there’s going to be major spurt of development in that “ditch” along 394. With the ballpark and this new development, there is going to be a huge increase in foot traffic. This will give the city a prime opportunity to properly connect North Loop with downtown. 3rd and 4th will have to remain elevated to get over the RR tracks and 394, but they can go back to surface-level between BNSF and 94. With buildings in the “ditch” all the way from Washington to the Ballpark, it’ll be absolutely alive down there by, oh, 2015 (Ballpark + 5).
I think that getting rid of 94 in the North Loop is rather silly. Where would you move it? Or would you just have a gap in 94? There are freeways around the country that could come down, but the Twin Cities is under-freewayed for its size. I’d recommend going in the other direction: upgrade Ayd Mill Road to a freeway with a connection at 94. I’m also disappointed that 335 was never built with full access at both ends.
I have mixed feelings about taking out anything… It’s kinda like a delicate eco-system; you ban one thing and something else suffers. If the freeways are already there, might as well work with what we have.
I’m surprised that no one thought to include the viaduct removal in the plans when the ballpark bill was passed. of course, it was so contentious at the time, maybe it was thought of, but died in committee before it saw the light of day.
i wrote something about removing the viaducts about six months ago on my blog. In the post, I do point out that this is something that has been on the radar, but not actively on the drawing board in the city. And there are prohibitively expensive reasons not to do it that would have to be managed.
And I’m not sure if I’d say the viaducts are unpleasant to live near - I probably wouldn’t have moved to the North Loop if that were the case. what I see is a waste actually. For much less cost, they could have built 3rd & 4th street bridges over the trenches 30 years ago. If they had, I suppose the neighborhood would have gentrified in the 80s/90s - and I would likely not be living here today. It was a tremendously short-sighted mistake 30 years ago, and in no small way was probably influenced by the trends Prof S alluded to in his comments. I don’t know if I share his completely cynical view of reversing that mistake through gentrification (could you make it sound any more malevolent?); but maintaining affordable housing needs to be a part of any neighborhood renewal - North Loop included.
And keep in mind - this isn’t getting rid of i-94, it is getting rid of the viaducts that connect downtown to I-94 N and moving that traffic to surface streets (one of which is directly adjacent to the viaduct) for approximately half a mile. It is hardly about tearing up the freeway so that suburban commuters can not come into the city.
I think that getting rid of 94 in the North Loop is rather silly. Where would you move it? Or would you just have a gap in 94? There are freeways around the country that could come down, but the Twin Cities is under-freewayed for its size. I’d recommend going in the other direction: upgrade Ayd Mill Road to a freeway with a connection at 94. I’m also disappointed that 335 was never built with full access at both ends
This isn’t about removing any part of 94, this is about removing the long on-ramps that travel in a viaduct through the North Loop, connecting the end of 394 near the C garage to 94 up near Plymouth Ave N. They’re underutilized for the structure provided:
Also, the Twin Cities are certainly not ‘under-freewayed,’ nor is this particular stretch of highway really a key link to the freeway system - it’s a long on-ramp that does little to enhance freeway access to the core of Minneapolis, yet is a huge detriment to the area around it. If you removed that viaduct and restored 3rd and 4th, you’d gain some valuable land for development, you’d re-integrate the urban fabric of the North Loop, and you’d actually add some much needed traffic to the area - but it would be slowed down and much more urban.
What Alex B. said.
The Twin Cities has one of the highest freeway lane-miles per capita. We are very much NOT under-freewayed. We could stand to lose a few of them.
Remember the dire predictions of 24-hour gridlock on 94 after the bridge fell? Didn’t happen, did it.
I interpreted this statement:
I’d like to see the I-94 viaducts in the North Loop removed, and 3rd and 4th streets become connecting thru streets.
..to mean the person was advocating for the removal of both the elevated portion of I-94 in the North Loop and the 3rd/4th street connections.
Even if you are talking about removing teh 3rd/4th ramps, I don’t think that’s a good idea. Maybe tear down the elevated portion and have the ramps end at surface streets before 2nd Ave, but that connection to downtown is still needed.
That’s what happens when you try to put a freeway through a neighborhood that, as opposed to South and North Minneapolis, and the Rondo area of St Paul, has some political clout. It gets hung up for years, and when it finally DOES get built, has limitations imposed. I used to live in the area, and used it often to get to work. I never exceeded the 45PMH limit because the St. Paul cops like to set up speed traps there. I’d have people come up behind me, then impatiently pass me. In one instance, a middle aged woman in a business suit driving a Lexus flipped me the bird! More than once, I would see those same people pulled over a couple of miles later, in the process of getting a ticket. I would always give a little bleat of the horn as I went by. And yes, it gave me a nice little bit of satisfaction to do that.
DG - Let me clarify (my other longer post is being moderated due to a couple of links). Remove the viaducts, but build bridges in their place that would connect 3rd and 4th Streets N to the rest of downtown and would provide the connection from downtown to I-94 north of downtown.
I’m simply advocating moving the traffic from the viaducts to surface streets through the North Loop.
“Given the cost of gas, maybe the driver decided to stop right there to save fuel.”
Or maybe what happened to me last night happened to him. Fortunately for me, it only left the lawn half unmowed.
I am curious now: if we have too many freeways, which ones could we lose?
.to mean the person was advocating for the removal of both the elevated portion of I-94 in the North Loop and the 3rd/4th street connections.
Even if you are talking about removing teh 3rd/4th ramps, I don’t think that’s a good idea. Maybe tear down the elevated portion and have the ramps end at surface streets before 2nd Ave, but that connection to downtown is still needed.
I think you interpreted that wrong, then. The most successful freeway removals have been for spurs into cities - which is essentially what the 3rd/4th viaduct is. This idea has been discussed for a long time, both as part of the ballpark construction and as a long term idea put forth in Minneapolis’ North Loop master plan.
Removing the portion of the main part of 94 that’s elevated makes no sense, because that’s not a spur. If you’re going to remove that one section, you might as well remove the whole thing. Unlike the 3rd and 4th viaduct, no one is seriously advocating for that, thus I’m pretty sure you’ve interpreted that statement incorrectly.
I also don’t understand why you think taking the viaduct out would be a bad idea. Any such plan would undoubtedly include new bridges over the trench, connecting the North Loop to Downtown proper - so that connection would still be there. The only difference would be that cars will travel on surface streets. You’ll still be able to make that exit or entrance from or to 94.
I don’t think taking out the long 3rd/4th ramps would be a bad idea. Connect the freeway to 3rd and 4th at 10th Avenue and remove the extended ramp that is there now. Sounds good to me.
This is an excellent article that provides four case studies where freeway spur removals occurred. I am most familiar with the case from our friends in Milwaukee. And I think this quote would ring quite true in the North Loop as well.
‘In that neighborhood (north end of DT Milwaukee), “you’re no longer looking at the freeway, you’re looking at downtown,” City Engineer Jeff Polenske said.’
Yes, it is true that the Twin Cities have one of the highest lane-miles per capita, however, our city also has more area per capita as well. Unneccessary freeway removal is a great tool for modern cities, but I think our freeway system is bare bones as it is. Here are a few freeways I believe we could do without to spur open space and new development:
-3rd and 4th St viaducts
-MN 65 at the downtown commons (put 35W and 94 below ground and run a nice bvld south towards 28th.
-Washington mini-freeway from metrodome to the U (already proposed as part of the CCLRT)
-Bury 94 around Lowry Hill and fix the mess of Henn/Lyndale
-Instead of I-335, there should have been a proposal to run a bvld in that same alignment to provide better access to the interstates.
Other than that, we don’t have much else to tear down and fix up. In hindsight, maybe it was a good thing that the NIMBYs won here during the freeway boom.
hmmm…I mean “removal of unneccessary freeways are” and not “Unneccessary freeway removal is”
Sorry!
I find this discussion humorous for several reasons:
MnDont has an awful track record of designing roads (atleast in the Metro area). Let’s see - replace 35E & 694, replace 35W & 62, replace….. What a train wreck.
We don’t have money to even fix the condition of the city streets.
What priority do you think it is for the state to rip out functional highways? As compared to replacing bridges?
I always wondered why (from downtown) you had to travel miles, on entrance ramps/service roads, to finally enter 94 North. Another great MnDont design.
That’s ok, Comrade DGB. We find your comments humorous too. Thanks for stopping by.
I think I might actually agree with DGB, today… Why take away something that’s already there? We should fix what we have, and add in whatever else will help.
There are tremendous benefits to removing the viaducts. Increased property values, increased property taxes - Adding the six blocks the viaducts take up to the downtown property tax rolls has got to be worth a significant amount, too.
Granted - there are a lot of other priorities/challenges that we face in the city/state. However, I think there is the potential for a significant net gain, and I’d like to see a comprehensive study done to determine its feasibility and cost-benefits.
Admittedly, I personally stand to gain quite a bit given where I live. In other cities that have taken similar actions, property values in the reclaimed areas have increased dramatically. But I am a few blocks away from the viaducts, so I would not stand to gain as much as the folks on 4th Street in the 7xx Lofts or Bookmen Stacks who look out their windows at the traffic whizzing by and would have a much different view if the viaducts weren’t there.
But I also think the city gains a lot by creating a much more walkable neighborhood around the ballpark. There are going to be 40K people coming to this neighborhood 81 times a year. I’d like to see them stay in the neighborhood before and/or after the games - as opposed to just warping in/out of the neighborhood on the viaducts.
There will be a major development boom in the North Loop soon. The Southwest Corridor is looking at a possible alignment through the southern portion of the North Loop neighborhood; the ballpark area is going to be the intersection of a commuter rail and two light rail lines already, so the development is going to come. That may make it much more difficult to remove the viaducts in 5 or 10 years. The time to look into this is now, so that we can do it right the first time.
I believe one of the reasons there are viaducts for 3rd & 4th today is due to the proposed alignment of I-335 joining I-94. From the old maps of alignments I have seen for the proposed freeway, it was to join I-94 where Plymouth Ave currently is at, which would mean you would need the viaducts in the area to have this large of an interchange. Just a thought!
Joe Somebody says
“-MN 65 at the downtown commons (put 35W and 94 below ground and run a nice bvld south towards 28th.
-Bury 94 around Lowry Hill and fix the mess of Henn/Lyndale”
Sure, if cost is no object - bury them all. I’m all for it.
But, considering the cost… Burying existing freeways isn’t particularly practical.
Unless you just bury the ‘trench’ sections of 94, 35W & 35E. Even then, it seems like a hugely expensive undertaking.
Sometimes you just have to live with what you got.
While they’re at it, how about re-routing 35W between Hennipen and Stinson in the NE. Just make ONE continuous curve to the east of the current alignment (thru old warehouses, etc), and redevelop the old “oversized-and-complicated-for-335’s-interchange” roadbed.
BarryS says: “But I also think the city gains a lot by creating a much more walkable neighborhood around the ballpark. There are going to be 40K people coming to this neighborhood 81 times a year. I’d like to see them stay in the neighborhood before and/or after the games - as opposed to just warping in/out of the neighborhood on the viaducts. ”
What kind of fantasy world do you live in? The come for the game. ASAP they will leave.
Neighborhood? What the hell is a feelgoodism as a neighborhood?
OMG - I just visited BarryS’s blog - he really is a socialist, I mean really big time.
Let’s surrender all our liberities to him. He know’s the answer!
DGB, have you ever been to a place?
Of course you exist, so you’ve been somewhere, but have you ever been to a place?
Somewhere is a plot of land upon which your house is built. It is connected somehow to somewhere that you work, likewise somewhere that you go shopping, somewhere that you go for entertainment, etc.
A place is more than that. If you live at a place, you walk out your friend door, and you look around, and you’re happy to be there. This place is pleasing to you in some manner. This is opposed to just living somewhere, where you simply walk out your door and to the car.
If you go to a movie at a place, after you leave the theater, your surroundings are pleasant. There are other people milling about who agree that the surroundings are pleasant, which is why they’re still there. (What it is that keeps the place pleasant is irrelevant here). If you go to a movie somewhere, after the movie you scurry back to your car and go home.
I live at a place, I frequent places (I also frequent somewheres, they are unavoidable these days). I enjoy places, and try to find new ones, and do what I can to ensure that new ones are created.
I suspect barryS wants the North Loop to become a place, and then to become a better place.
You seem content with all of us just living somewhere, DGB.
Coupla thoughts.
A year or so ago, the Strib ran a piece on the high cost of chicken and the impact that was having on restaurants. One owner had a great perspective - “The best solution for high prices is high prices.” I guess that’s the market at work. Too bad people have so much trouble with that concept when it comes to gas prices.
I’ve long suspected that one of the reasons it was so easy to get rid of our streetcar system in the 1950s was that we had run the wheels off of everything during WWII. At war’s end, transit ridership in the Twin Cities was three times what it is today with about as many streetcars as we have buses today. The track was worn out and most streetcars were at least 30 years old. The entire system needed to be rebuilt.
Today our freeway system is in about the same shape as the streetcar system was back then. I learned yesterday that another two bridges must be replaced soon. The flyover from 35W north to I-94 west and the braid bridge immediately south. In addition, with gas prices what they are, about half our fleet, especially SUVs, is becoming dysfunctional.
Perhaps it’s time for a shift back to rail transit.
Peter Bajurny says: “A place is more than that. If you live at a place, you walk out your friend door, and you look around, and you’re happy to be there. This place is pleasing to you in some manner. This is opposed to just living somewhere, where you simply walk out your door and to the car.”
What a fantasy world you live in.
I own a home, on a lake, here in Minneapolis. ‘My place’ has an 8% property tax increase every year, plus they increase the valuation of the home, even though property rates are falling.
I feel absolutely no connection with anything, except my family. Minneapolis - a taxing entity, same for the state of MN. I doubt 99% of the other people do either.
I would submit that most people just want to be left alone. Paying money to tear down already established freeways - well that can happen when we have everything else solved!
DGB, I live in half a duplex two blocks from a lake in Minneapolis. I rent and have been here just under three years. My parents live over 500 miles away and my brother is in Minnetonka.
Yet, I feel as though I am part of a place — nay, a neighborhood. I drive out and back for work, yes, but when I’m home I can walk a block or two for food or to shop a little bit. There have been multiple gatherings at a house on this block for everyone to get to know each other. A lawyer gentleman from down the street waves from the bus stop across the street in the mornings when I walk to my car.
I’m 27, single, and house-shopping. I am at the most mobile part of my life…yet I feel a very strong sense of place. I am looking for more than a house; I’m also neighborhood shopping. I want this city to be great; I want to take pride in the spaces and places around me; I want to feel a connection to neighbors and people I see on the streets.
Maybe you truly think I’m living in a fantasy, but I don’t agree. The hundreds of people I see walking, biking, running, rollerblading around the lakes on a sunny day would all likely disagree. The thousands of people who want to go somewhere and socialize after (and before!) a big baseball game would disagree.
There are several million people crammed (granted, not very tightly) into this metro area. Like it or not, this is a place and it will always be a place. It’s not three million people living individually; it’s one living being made of three million unique parts. If we don’t develop and grow this being intelligently, it will die. You, yourself might not, but the city will.
So what you’re saying is… no. You’ve never been to a place.
And that’s what’s different between most of us and you. We view the environment around us as a place, a place where we live and work, and we want to like this place.
You view your surroundings as… I don’t even know. Maybe an obstacle to your freedom. I don’t really know what you value, other than being contrary.
Oh, c’mon Comrade DGB. we all know you’re a closet socialist and/or communist anyway. Quit trying to hide it. You and your saint Thomas Gold are going to magically make cheap communist oil for the rest of us. 
Seriously though. DGB, you always try to claim that everyone is like you and you paint your opinions with the broadest strokes possible. “Most people want to be left alone”. No, DGB, you want to be left alone. And I suspect that even that is BS, because people who want to be left alone do not participate in their communities. Which, btw, includes engaging in discussions on popular blog sites in the community.
You out of town this weekend DGB? Because your visit to my blog just happened to come from Gillette, WY. That’s a loooong way from your house on a lake in Minneapolis. Hope it didn’t cost to much to get you there.
Ever been to downtown Stillwater on a weekend. All the traffic choking the streets that’s just trying to get through town seriously degrades the experience for those that are walking around trying to enjoy the downtown. If the viaduct were gone, you’d have the same kind of situation. Not everyone wants to have a beer at a bar after the game, some people just want to get out of Dodge and back to their home in Maple Grove. Removing that traffic from the city grid as fast as possible so the people sitting at a sidewalk cafe don’t breathe their exhaust would seem to be in the best interest of everyone. I think though it would have been better if the viaduct had been built in a trench with a park over it.
“Removing that traffic from the city grid as fast as possible so the people sitting at a sidewalk cafe don’t breathe their exhaust would seem to be in the best interest of everyone”
Exactly my thoughts. This is where I might actually side with DGB on the no-freeway question.
Any traffic from where a freeway once was will go into the “neighborhood.” With that much gridlock, there won’t be people smiling and waving–it will be people sneering, shouting and fist shaking…
There needs to be a balance… Have the freeway for those who wanna flee right away, and a neighborhood for the rest of us to enjoy!
DGB - As someone with a generally conservative take, I’ve agreed with you on a lot of things. You’re wrong on this one.
My wife and I just moved into a condo in the Mill District for the very reasons that people were talking about on here - the experience of a neighborhood. We made the decisions because we hated how sterile our suburban run of houses were at our old place. We missed being able to walk places like we did when I lived on the West Bank and she lived in Uptown.
You too have a neighborhood. If it is as you indicate - filled with people who just want to get out of the city and go home, then it just means that your neighborhood is filled with people with an irrational fear of the city.
If you don’t like Minneapolis, there are plenty of other cities where you can move. Someone will take your spot. We won’t miss you.
Monte - Stillwater has that problem because they have single lanes going through their downtown, the road simply cannot handle the capacity - all day long. That’s why MNDOT wants to build a new crossing that lets thru traffic bypass downtown Stillwater.
I do not think removing the viaducts will result in the same situation in the North Loop. Oh, there will be traffic. But, like it already is at the Dome, the traffic will dissipate rather quickly for the people who just want to leave.
Again, this must be stated. The freeway is not being removed. That would be insane. The viaducts are 1/2 mile long “on-ramps” to I-94 north of downtown. They do not handle nearly the traffic that they could and there are perfectly good streets literally in its shadow that could just as easily handle the traffic. These on-ramps to I-94 would simply be at 10th Ave N, not 2nd Ave N.
The lower-left hand corner of this map illustrates the area we’re talking about. I-94 is not even on this map, just the 1/2 mile long viaducts (they say “to northbound I-94″ on the map).
I couldn’t resist.
DGB is a transplant from the State of New York (or some eastern state, pretty sure it’s New York). A lot of his post have always been complaining about how Minnesotans have made such a mess of their state.
Why he stays in MN, I don’t know.
Barry S.:”Oklahoma City is doing something that I wish would happen in the North Loop — removing the highway and replacing it with a park and a boulevard. ”
WRONG.
That section of I-40 is just being replaced with a new, wider freeway 5 blocks south of where the road currently is.
The old freeway will be removed after the new road is done.
And what are they doing with the space where the freeway currently is? I’m guessing replacing it with a park and a boulevard. I think barry means the highway in that space is being replaced, not the entire highway.
icare says: “DGB is a transplant from the State of New York (or some eastern state, pretty sure it’s New York). A lot of his post have always been complaining about how Minnesotans have made such a mess of their state.
Why he stays in MN, I don’t know.”
You are correct, I am from Philadelphia, and Long Island.
But your assumption is completely wrong.
NYC is a mess. Many of the people who live in and around (Brooklyn, Queens, etc) are trapped. They haven’t a clue. Step outside your door and your gonna spend $100. The place is a pit, wouldn’t go back there for love nor money.
Minneapolis used to be (1975) a nice place to live. The roads worked, you could go downtown and park for $5 a day. The Nicollet mall had unique and interesting, privately owned stores, as did Southdale. That’s all history. How about parking for $6/hr! How about having the same stores as every other town in the US. Where’s the originality? Minneapolis has been coverted to New Jersey. I’m not the one who changed this, nor asked for it. Rather you midwestern’s did.
It saddens me to see Minneapolis going the way of NYC and Philadelphia - ever increasing taxe rates, middle class famlies fleeing to the suburbs to aviod the public schools, public schools that spend $15,000 to edumacate drop outs, panhandlers, mobs of black youths acting out in front of Block-E. Another sign is government entities like the “Met Council”. These unelected officials find creative ways to tax / drain revenue from the ’surrounding counties’ / and coerce corporations to do what ever is their current game plan. All to support a failing city.
What you will continue to see is ever increasing sales taxes, property taxes, and any kind of new fee that they can dream up. Special intrest groups (like transit) will continue to beat the drum until they get their dream to carve the place up even more. Yet others want to carve it up with bike trails, and others want to rip out freeways. I’ve seen it back East, the place went to sh*t.
I bet a family of four will spend close to $150 to go to a twins game - counting tickets, parking, refreshments.
Floyd - I should have said ‘moving’ not ‘removing’ the highway. But the part about the park/boulevard is true. That is what will be in the place of the original highway ROW. My bad.
DGB - Maybe you should just keep moving west. Millions upon millions of people in the East Coast seem to like their cities just fine, despite your protestations that it “went to sh*t” and they are “trapped”. I’ve been to NYC, quite a few of my friends live there, and it is neither sh*t to them/me nor are they trapped. They love it there and wouldn’t move here for love or money.
But ya know what - the same thing goes on here. Hundreds of thousands of Minneapolitans really love this city - despite your feeling that it “used to be a nice place to live” and that it is a “failing city”. I see them everyday at work, in bars, out on those damn bike paths that you hate, commenting on the local blogs, my god they’re everywhere! Folks enjoying this city, not trying to be left alone at all.
The same thing is repeated everywhere. People take pride in their communities. They want to see them improved and are active in making those improvements happen - sometimes even by raising taxes. Even those wacky socialists in Gillette, Wyoming are busy making plans to expand upon their 25 miles of bike paths in the city. Have you written everyone there to tell them how their city is now being “turned to sh*t”?
http://gillettehomesandmore.com/articles/view-id-34.html
Perhaps you should just keep moving west ’til you are so deep in the mountains that you have no friends or neighbors and you are happy. The rest of the world will go on just fine in your absence.
Failing city has nothing to do with bike trails or transit. Getting overrun with youths in gangs is a result of spending CUTS–not tax hikes. When we eliminate police and jail to save a few dollars, we know what comes next.
If anything, having some neighborhood improvement plans might reverse the damage. Drawing people out of their homes and into the streets prevents crime.
I disagree that it is a good idea to remove the I-94 viaduct ramps.
There is no feasible alternative for commuters entering downtown from the north. Washington Ave. does not have the capacity to handle the influx of traffic that would occur under such a design, nor would a surface ‘boulevard’. During the mornng peak hours, queues of up to a 1/2 mile form on the viaduct. Imagine adding several additional intersections.
Also, it should be noted that during the most recent real estate boom/bust cycle, developers had no trouble building units near the viaduct. The owners of these units bought them with the full knowledge that they were moving next door to an elevated highway. This apparently wasn’t too much of a deterrent. Removing the viaduct would give them a nice, unobstructed view of the garbage incinerator.
As for the Twins stadium, the people who do stay around downtown after the games are likely to go to the bars closer to downtown. In fact, this is what Minneapolis was counting on by insisting on linking the stadium to the rest of downtown via a pedestrian walkway. I doubt very much though, that the parents who take their young children to the games will be looking for a place to mingle with the ‘baristas’ afterwards.
Of course, this latest boom was fueled by cheap credit and speculation, like much of the housing market. The condo market is in the gutter, and there are no prospects for another ‘boom’ on the horizon.
Lastly, it seems odd and counterintuitive to me that the downtown location for the ballpark was chosen in part because of its superior access characeristics. Part of this included having access to the distributor ramps (such as 4th St.) directly from the viaducts. Removing them would make traveling downtown, for a Twins game or for any reason, thoroughly unpalatable.
MJ - I live over by Washington Ave. I’ve seen those limited times when traffic is queued up on the viaduct in the morning. And there is nary a soul driving on Washington at the same time. And I think to myself, wow - it’s too bad all those folks are trapped on a viaduct and can’t come over and use these streets with no traffic on them.
Those queues occur on the viaduct because there are no other streets for the users to spill over to. No opportunity to take a right and make your way to 7th, or to take a left and go to Washington.
As has been pointed out above, the viaducts are in fact quite underutilized for their structure. 3rd and 4th streets have capacity to be 3 and potentially 4 lane one-ways (with removal of parking). Compared to the two lanes each way on the viaduct, I think they’d be able to handle any queues just fine. Even though I think some of the queuing would actually move upstream behind 10th Ave N. - where the first signal would be. At a signal at 10th Ave N, exiting drivers wouldn’t be competing with traffic coming off i-394 at that 2nd Ave N intersection, so the 10th Ave N. intersection would be able to handle more throughput coming off of I-94 - thus relieving some of that queuing.
Our state is indeed turning to sh*t, thanks to Pawlenty spendthrift and tax cuts (well, except property taxes, where the funds come from instead of income taxes under Pawlenty’s watch). I just got back from Colorado, and their roads and highways are BEAUTIFUL. I don’t think I hit one pothole. The roads are SMOOTH. It made me even all that more frustrated to drive on our rotted infrastructure here. None of the baby boomer-age politicians want to invest in our infrastructure, and it’s showing. I have been purposely paying attention, and there is not one smooth highway in the east or central metro. And the reason the 45 mph part of 35E is being paved is because there are rich people who live around there, and that is a main route for the RNC this fall. The rich people who live there are the ONLY reason the speed limit is 45. Anyway, the roads in ALL of Colorado were dreamy. When I moved to MN in 1999 the roads were better than in WI, but since then the situation has reversed. I have never lived in a place with roads in such terrible condition. It’s no wonder the bridge fell down. But still nobody learns a lesson about spending NOW to save LATER.
Amy, that’s because (and I’m gonna generalize here) most of the well-off boomer political leaders do not drive small sports cars, motorcycles and bicycles. They drive massive 3- to 4-ton vehicles designed for combat. The boomers feel immune to bad roads, because THEIR vehicles do not NEED roads.
Barry S,
One can speculate as to why commuters use the viaduct rather Washington Ave. or other local roads. There certainly are other routes (e.g. 2nd st., 7th St., Olson Hwy, etc.).
It is possible that commuters are simply not aware of these routes and have not picked up a map to figure how to avoid the bottleneck at the entrance to downtown. However, I think it is more likely that (at least some) drivers are aware of these routes, but assume that they will provide only marginal time savings, at best.
A few thoughts on the concept of converting the 3rd/4th St spur from I-94 to a surface-grade from a traffic engineering standpoint:
- Average traffic volumes on the spur are about 20K daily. Combined with the existing 3rd St/4th St, it’s a total of about 23K. This is on par with many of the one-way pairs around downtown.
- With that in mind, it’s within the realm of possibility to take down the freeway spur and create a 3rd/4th St “boulevard” in between I-94 and 2nd Ave N.
- To maintain traffic flow, though, two main recommendations, if not outright requirements, would be A) traffic signal progression, and B) three lanes on each street. I don’t remember street widths offhand, but I think it’s possible to maintain 3 traffic lanes and still have enough street width for parking and a bike lane, especially inbound along 4th St (which has the wider width available due to the overpass).
- One of two areas of concern is bridging over the BNSF rail tracks. I don’t remember the elevation difference between the BNSF trench and old 3rd St/4th St, but if there’s enough of an elevation difference, you should be able to bridge over the rail tracks without having to bridge over 5th Ave N as well.
- The other area of concern is connecting to the I-94 ramps, especially outbound on 3rd St. The inbound connection to 4th St shouldn’t be much of a problem, but the outbound connection currently has a large building in the way…this building is what causes the break in 3rd St between 10th Ave N and 12th Ave N. It’s not insurmountable, but it may require some tight curviture and will definately impact the parking lots at the building.
Two things:
1.) DGB - Good luck finding a city where those things aren’t happening. All cities have problems with white flight, increasing parking costs (which if you account for inflation, parking probably has gone down using your numbers), and increasing costs and fees.
Also, I must note that whenever a friend from out of town comes to Minneapolis, they always comment on how they can’t believe how fast the city is growing and how much nicer it is today than it was just a few years ago.
2.) Amy - The roads have been falling apart since long before the Pawlenty administration. Furthermore, the governor doesn’t make policy by himself. The legislature is involved in funding, local politicians influence where and when things are built (not to mention taking control of local/county roads), and NIMBY-ism often causes less than opitimal results.
So while you may assume that the road being paved is due to political crony-ism, it’s not. In fact, if you look at Highland Park (the people most likely to use this road) donations, it leans Democrat, particularly zip code 55116 (where the top 20 donations and 50 of the top 53 donations were for Democrats).
“The boomers feel immune to bad roads, because THEIR vehicles do not NEED roads.” Just think of all the tax $$ we’d save if we all drove 4×4s. They wouldn’t have to pave the roads at all. Trade that scooter in for a dirt bike.
BarryS: “Getting overrun with youths in gangs is a result of spending CUTS–not tax hikes.”
No, it’s primarily a result of bad parenting and a culture of resentment and generational poverty. Throwing more money at that problem ain’t gonna solve it.
The reason MNDOT wants a new Stillwater
Bridge is land developers in western Cheeseland wanted to sell sprawl.
Not gonna happen now that housing is dead.
And let us not forget the
Ayd Mill Road park that the citizens supported before Kelly got in to St Paul (that other freeway city). Perfect tear up material of a crumbly former stream bed that was in the Park Plan of the 1890s.
Uh oh, Battle of the Barry’s…
Bea-A, I was the one, Barry (not barryS), that said that.
I think I will have to change my handle, or there will be a blog traffic-jam.
I agree with not throwing away money, but, on the flip side, I also don’t want things removed or banned–not even big freeways and big Hummers–we can all get along.
My girlfriend uses Ayd Mill Road to get to/from work so she would be disappointed to see it go. However, I’ve always questioned its usefulness. It is in the way and only has half-access and doesn’t actually connect the two major roads it is supposed to. Get rid of the road, reconnect the grid in a few places over that gully (the RR isn’t going anywhere), and everyone benefits (almost).
I have to vent, not sure this is the best place. Feel free to spread these comments if you so wish.
I would like to thank … “NOT” …the Stearns county sheriffs for causing a dangerous and unneccessary situation on 94 on Friday heading North.
First a little background…
Ok, Going North on 94 out of Maple Grove one could expect stop and go traffic to Rogers and that it being Memorial Weekend on Friday one coudl expect the stop and go traffic going until Monticello. NOT THIS FRIDAY, our local Stearns County Sheriffs decide to have a sweaping charity drive this Friday in their little area. Yup, 3 confirmed cops plus potentially more hanging out and pulling people over. Of course now with the new law making people pull over into the left lane when emergency vehicles are on the shoulder effectively you have a merge into one lane going on while these guys are writing tickets. This is plain wrong!!! Bottom line on Friday it was stop and go from Maple Grove to St Cloud…
If I were a resort owner I would start putting pressure on our legislators to prevent the above from happening and also forcing cities that rely on the highway supporting their towns, Maple Grove, Rogers, Monticello to start forking out money for Federal Highway improvements. Can you say 3 lanes to Moniticello…..
Whew now I feel better……
Not much can be done, Coop. There has to be some law enforcement watching over us or all H breaks loose.
We don’t know if those they caught were going just a little over the speed limit–or if they were really reckless and nuts… or had a three-martini lunch?
Amy, I gotta correct your statement about 35-E. It wasn’t primarily rich people that set the speed limit. It was middle- and working-class folks living near W. 7th St. It is a classic study of community organizing. Some of these folks put their houses up a collateral when they filed the lawsuit against Mn/DOT. They risked a lot to protect their neighborhoods and bully for them!
Barry,
They probably were speeding, I observe the cork out of the bottleneck effect. Essentially people let out their frustrations of being in stop and go traffic by going faster for a period of time only to slow down eventually. I find it tends to govern itself as it is moderated by those who dont cork, persay.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but the “move over” law only applies if you can move safely over into the left lane. If you have traffic already in the left lane, you’re not required to move over.
Not Ayd Mill Road again…
Yes, the “park” idea “won” the vote — with about 30%!!! That means, boys and girls, that fully TWO-THIRDS of those voting wanted Ayd MIll to remain a road!!!! Their votes were just split up between the four of five different types of road (2 or 4 lane, expressway, parkway, etc).
The only mistake the planners made was in setting up the vote:
Vote #1, park or road?
Vote #2, what type of road?
But heck with what approx. 66% want, and heck with those poor saps LIVING on a Lexington Ave artificially choked with traffic, we needed another park.
Dear Prof S: I’m a guy with Prof credentials also. IMHO the Mpls area has exceeded it’s value. Another words it has too much overhead (taxes / fees / costs ) for what you get.
We needed a $400,000,000 library, and now we need a $39,000,000 planatarium. We also need about $10 billion dollars in mass transit, and we pay about $15,000 per annum to edumacate drop outs. Our highway infrastructure is maxed out and we will have to put up with construction for the next 20 yrs. Also we need to support great influxes from all sorts of third world countries. This includes all their medical expenses, translation fees, education fees, related crime, etc, etc.
I ask the question: “What are we getting for this?” The Twins? The Vikes? The Guthrie? The MN Orchestra?
In January of ‘08 we visited my wife’s parents in north western Pennsylvania. To my surprise, everything we have here (goods / foods) are available in a town of 50,000.
I suggest finding a nice college town.
To beat the proverbial dead horse… in the Bronx, a community plan has been developed to remove a 1.25 mile section of what is locally referred to as the “Highway to Nowhere”. I love that cities are making plans to reclaim these spaces!
http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/Sustainability%20Watch/20080527/210/2535
For the record, the Library referendum was for 140 million, not 400 million, 110 million for a new central library and 30 million for upgrading and improving several of the branch libraries. The old central library was not only packed to the gills with books, it was in violation of fire codes and was only allowed to continue operating as long as it did because there was a fire station a half a block away. The people of Minneapolis got to vote and supported the referendum by a wide margin, which is more then we can say for the twins stadium.
David, I would like to see proof/links to your claim. What lawsuit could they bring for 55 mph on a highway?
Amy,
Never underestimate the ability of the “legal community” to threaten to waste both time and money in order to extract favors from government. Also, it was 45 mph, which is why people are so outraged. Hence the name, 35E Parkway.
Works both ways… Lotsa folks who are fed up with the freeway, “convert” the parkways into freeways…
35E south of downtown is being repaved because the pavement was just horrible before the paving project.
MNDot is not repaving all the other interstates into St Paul so I doubt the RNC has anything to do with it. I’ll bet if someone checked into this deeply that it was scheduled for 2008 before the RNC was landed.
