Beisbol-a-GO-GO asks a powerful question…
Posted on July 24th, 2008 – 8:56 AMBy Howard
…and I want to know what you think, too. Rather than a shopping list of all that went wrong in New York — Pitchers losing it, Casilla reverting on defense, Buscher looking like a busher, Morneau’s one hit (the hand, the hand, the hand), Perkins’ meltdown, Punto watching strikes, Gomez’ problems and other stuff that I’ve probably blocked out — I figure it’s a good time to post a question raised in the previous comment section.
It also seems like a good time to offer some love from the Section 220 keyboard: I went through yesterday’s comments and was struck, once again, by the combination of civility and passion that the vast, vast majority of you bring to this blog. Yes, every now and again one of you takes a chunk out of my leg (or the leg of one of the other commenters), but there’s a load of substance in all those words. Folks who don’t read the comments on this blog are really shortchanged.
Another journalist asked me a few weeks back how many comments I had to delete to keep the conversation “so civil.” I told him less than 1 in 100. He was shocked.
I hope you all keep reading and responding.
Now, on to Beisbol-a-GO-GO’s question:
Are there any graybeards on this blog who were alive and a serious Twins fan BT (before TK)? I have a question that bugs me no end and I would like a knowledgeable answer, so please don’t fake an answer if you were not alive or a Twins fan years ago.
The Twins are universally praised in baseballdom and by the media as running a superb fundamentally sound baseball program and organization, e.g. the emphasis and success with good pitching, good defense and good small ball. But why is it the Twins treat pulling the ball with gusto to yank one out like a capital crime punishable by the electric chair or maybe a firing squad?
I know, I know, hitting the ball the other way is a great way for a hitter to get out of a slump. Fine, I’m OK with that. But it seems like there is an organization-wide allergy to power. Players who are drafted either don’t have it to begin with or are soon “cured” of it when they come up through the farm system. Players who arrive in a trade either have or develop the same profile.
I know we have Jason (Morneau) and also the real Jason (Kubel). But other than that it’s like pulling teeth. And years ago we did have power. What happened??? Someone, please explain. I ask because even if we got someone like a Beltre, is he only going to end up morphing into a real Twin??
Have at it, folks. Or ask your own question. Seems like a good way to spend an off day.
other people are here too
133 Responses to "Beisbol-a-GO-GO asks a powerful question…"
I came on board the Twins wagon in 84 after previously alternating Braves and Cubs due to the superstations. I don’t remember the Twins having power past 91. Guys like David Ortiz bag the orginazation for hitting the other way.
I like the pitching and defense concepts and the small ball. What i don’t get is the lack of drafting and signing power guys. I don’t think the organization ruins power hitters, i just don’t think they are trying to find them.
If Beltre comes here, they won’t ruin him. They would want him for what he is now. He’d also upgrade the defense,
Power hitters command more money than slap hitters. Twins don’t spend much money to get good hitters (Morneau, Mauer are exceptions) as that is not the “Twins Way”.
While that MAY have been a problem, I think Shawn brings up a good point. A guy like Beltre wouldn’t be brought in so they could mold him.
Same with a guy like Young. I don’t think the Twins philosphy has magically “ruined” Young this season.
Young was brought in for what he had done before, as would Beltre. I also feel that’s why they brought in Monroe (who has shown power but little else)
In that regard, I think the philosphy is changing somewhat.
However, I think the result of this gradual shift in philosphy has done a number on Twins fans, who are used to the more sound defensive styles that the Twins previously preached.
For example, Delmon Young has power potential…but flails at pitching alot (essentially a young Torii Hunter).
Gomez also supposedly has “power” as one of his tools, but is still VERY rough around the edges at the plate.
So we get into a situation where the Twins are trying to find some power, but then we as fans end up seeing the downside of some power hitters. And we aren’t used to it.
Perhaps Terry Ryan is not as good at judgeing talent as we all think he is.
Not many of our hitting / power prospects make it.
That is Directly TR’s fault.
How about how the Twins made Jason Tyner into a slugger and helped him end that homerless streak? 
I think TRs later drafts have been solid. But the drafts from 98-2000 are still leaving holes in the system.
Howard,
I am only 32, but in response to the lack of power with the team..I’ve wondered if it’s the dome? I know it used to be the “homer dome” but I’d be curious to know the pct of HR’s there in relation to other parks. Seems like homers are not hit as frequently, especially in the past 5 years, it seems. Maybe it’s the lighting, maybe it’s being indoors? I mean, it’s only us and Tropicana as the only two domes in the AL…
no gray hairs on my head (yet). yes, it does seem as though the twins do everything possible to avoid hitting home runs. however, there are a number of reason this is the case. for one thing, whenever they DO have a home run hitter, they don’t have enough strength hitting behind him to force pitchers to throw strikes. essentially, the twins have been an all-around weak hitting club (think padres). it is hard for a power hitter to survive on such a team.
why are the twins hitters perennially so lame? perhaps it is the result of a farm system that does a poor job of identifying position playing prospects. perhaps the system can identify them, but can’t develop them. perhaps they have an infatuation with little guys. i dunno. one major factor in the power loss (void) is the lack of deep wallets. good hitting position players are REALLY expensive.
i will add one thing. in the era of “the roid,” power throughout the league will most assuredly decline. that is, as players come off the juice, we will be seeing less homers. the game of baseball may change from one of big sluggers to one of speedy little guys. perhaps the twins are ahead of the game?
In my opinion the lack of power was a direct result of TK. Prior to him molding the Twins organization into what it is today the organization had some great Power hitters. I do agree that power hitters cost money to sign but if you draft a power hitter you can have him for cheap for at least 5 years.
Anti-power seems to be an organizational philosophy that I will never understand. If you have a big strong player that has power potential but might only hit .275 why would you not explore that? Half of the Twins prospects hit .275 or less anyway so why not try to produce some power out of them?
Thanks very much, Howard, for bringing some sanity to this misnomer that those who participate in these blogs are held captive in a psycho-ward and their words are not to be regarded.
I never knew any Twins manager before TK…I started becoming a hardcore Twins fan in 1988, although, of course, I do have memories and knowledge of the 1987 season.
The Power thing has been an oft-discussed topic…it went away two years ago when we had a couple players over 30 HR (finally), but that seemed to have been an abberation as we now sit with Jason leading the squad at 15. Jason still has a shot to get to 30, but it would be nice if we had more HR ability up and down the lineup…in case you didn’t notice, a 3-run homer by the White Sox’ no. 3 hitter worked out kind of well for them yesterday.
I don’t have any answers. We started the year bashing Vavra, then we praised him for the high amount of scoring and production with RISP, but I tell you what, when we lose, the lack of power really stands out, doesn’t it? I’d say if we don’t start seeing it from guys like D. Young and Kubel (who is basically a singles hitter with 13 HR), it might be an organizational / coaching issue. Heck, maybe we should throw Craig Monroe into the lineup with more regularity and see what happens.
Anyway, if you skim through the box scores this morning you will notice a certain ultility 3B / 1B / OF from Pittsburgh who went 4-for-4 yesterday and is now batting .274. What that has to with the Twins? Nothing, I guess, although I will point out he’s outplayed Mike Lamb this year, for sure (Lamb’s 3-for-4 yesterday notwithstanding).
We need to put the Yankees / Red Sox curse thing on hold…it’s all about getting to the playoffs in baseball and the schedule looks favorable for the Twins in August if we can get through the next 7 against Cleveland and the Whities at 5-2 (optimistic) or 4-3. Nine games with Seattle in August…gotta like that…another three with KC and Cleveland…Oakland is in free-fall mode…it should be there for the taking.
Otherwise, the Vikings will be more than happy to assume the front page of the sports section.
True, small ball=money ball. But I don’t think the Twins are allergic to power. They just prefer speed, all things considered. And it’s really tough to get guys who have both. So they typically spend their top choices on speedy guys and pitching. After that, power is hard to come by in the draft. Notable recent exceptions to the draft rule include Henry Sanchez–a sandwich pick between Garza and Slowey–and Danny Rams–a second rounder. Sanchez has yet to either stay healthy or learn to hit a curve ball in three pro seasons. He still isn’t out of rookie ball. And Rams is showing promise in E-Town.
Sometimes the Twins get lucky with a later round draft choice who has power. Morneau was a third rounder who probably would have been a first rounder had he not been Canadian. Kubel was a twelfth rounder. Two kids I have my eye on are Jon Waltenbury–another Candaian drafted in the seventh round who’s tearing up the Appy League–and Danny Valencia, a 19th round pick currently in AA who looks like the third baseman of the future.
Beyond the draft, there’s coaching. And the Twins coach contact because that’s the easiest way to score runs. Just like speed, it’s really hard to develop a contact hitter with power. Morneau is one case in point. But these guys are some of the most valuable commodities out there. I don’t really blame the Twins for not drafting or signing these guys. Lately they are all gone when the Twins draft in the first round. And free agents who can do both get $20 million a year on the open market.
I think part of it is the phylosophy of the organization. Look at the draft picks. Most organizations with power, draft power. The Brewers are a great example. There are others too. When is the last time we found a power hitter in the Rule 5 draft. Florida found Dan Uggla. Ortiz is one example of a former Twin who found his power stroke elsewhere. Casey Blake isn’t a bad example either. It’s not a knock, I think just a difference in phylosophy.
For those who are not old enough to remember, the Twins were originally known as a power lineup that featured Killebrew, Allison, Oliva, Hall, and Mincher, that slugged over 200 homeruns in a season several times. It all started to turn when free agency originated. Gene Mauch came in to manage, and we had more players like today with Carew, Bostock, Landreau,and Smalley. And guess what, we were crying for more power then, too. So it begs the question, is it phylosophy or is it money?
I’ve been complaining for the lack of power problem ad nauseum, from the messing up and finally releasing David Ortiz, to selecting hitting coaches up and down the organization who either never hit a HR in the majors or hit about 10 in 20 year careers.
My main argument is that the slap hitting philosophy is detrimental to the team (and if you look at the numbers, since 2001, the Twins teams that won their divisions had pretty high SLG%. There is a good dip in SLG both in 2005 and 2007, while the OBP and ERA remained pretty much the same.)
Now to the gut of the argument (and I did not go pre-Gardy era with the numbers). Because I do not like unsubstantiated arguments, I did a bit of analysis: If we hypothesize that the Twins’ organization promotes slap hitting and actually tries to turn hitters into slap hitters unnaturally, two things would happen:
a. the SLG% of the hitters who were with the Twins and left to go to another team would actually be higher, if not the next year, at least by 3 years.
b. the SLG% of the hitters who entered the Twins’ organization, would actually fall while with the Twins.
Guess what? I’d give a link to the data if anyone interested, but the results suggested that:
100% of b. is true and 90% of a. for all the players who moved in and out of the Twins’ organization during the Gardy ERA. There are only 2 players whose SLG did not increase when moved outside of the Twins organization: one of them is AJ and the other is Koskie (who arguably was hurt pretty much after he left the Twins.)
The data speaks:
The slap hitting philosophy hurts the Twins. The current organization promotes that. What gives? The Twins need a complete overhaul on coaching and FO staff to be competitive…
(I haven’t done the analysis yet, but I suspect that the numbers will show that the Twins are trying to mold their pitchers in the Radke type -control, few BB, few K, stay around the zone types- which also is hurting this team. More on that to come)
Let’s note we are in the post ‘roids era so maybe league wide power will go down a bit…
Danny Valencia -
The Jury is still way out on this guy.
He was a college guy beating up on rookie and A ballers.
Now he is in AA and he has doing slightly below expectations. Right now his potential looks to be a good fielding Brian Buscher
Well from reading the responses to this point, I several good comments. I think that everyone is right. What I mean is that, it is not just one thing, it is a combination of things. Right now we have no one to hit behind Morneau, meaning he sees fewer and fewer strikes as the season goes on. The Twins have developed few power guys over the last 15 years, this can be both scouting and coaching. There is an obvious organizational preference for contact hitters than power guys. Of course there is the money part where power equals money and for the most part the Twins are not willing to pay for it. Beltre could be the guy fill the need at 3rd base defensively and maybe hit behind Morneau, but if Seattle wants a king’s ransom for him, I can’t blame the Twins for passing. With the young pitching staff right now, I can’t blame the Twins for being more focused on the future than the present. I can see if this four game losing streak turns into a two week slump, that the Twins will become sellers and not bargain buyers.
Seems to me a lack of power in the Twins organization goes all the way back to the early 1970’s. Once Killebrew started getting older there never was a replacement. Seems the philosophy was to go more with a “Carew” type of hitter. Look at teams that weren’t very good in the 1970’s (except for the 1977 team). There were never any true power hitters. Kenny Landreaux and Lyman Bostock would be good examples. Disco Dan Ford and Larry Hisle were better power hitters but would also hit for average. I wonder if the philosophy doesn’t go back to Gene Mauch or even to a manager like Frank Quilici. Maybe the philosophy dates back to the cheapness of owner Calvin Griffin and the fact that singles hitters were always cheaper than power hitters. Singles hitters were all the managers had to work with.
I’ve been a Twins fan since opening day for the franchise. Sam Mele, Billy Martin, etc., etc. etc. I was attending Ascension grade school during the ‘65 World Series when the nuns wheeled in televisions into our class room (a rare sign of grace for me). And, yes, I wear Twins underwear.
I’ve more or less followed the Twins since ‘61 (if in fact a first grader can be said to follow anyone)- My fandom took a step up and I’ve remained a rabid fan since the mid-70’s, the Gene Mauch Years. (Even nearly 20 years in MA hasn’t altered my baseball loyalties) The Twins have lacked power since that time -30 HR was a big year for a Twins player. Remember in Ball Four how Bouton nicknamed the Twins “The Fat Kid and his wrecking crew”? No longer
I’m going to play devil’s advocate here. I think the lack of HR power is a bit overblown. True, from 1995-2005, we were basically lacking any power whatsoever, save for the likes of Matt Lawton, Torii Hunter and Jacques Jones, who could muscle a few out here and there. In 2006, though, you had 4 guys hit a total of 102 HR (Morneau 34, Hunter 31, Cuddyer 24 and Mauer 13), with Mauer looking like he legitimately could develop more power. That’s decent HR production from 4 hitters in your lineup. The key, as I see it, was Cuddyer adding a second threat from the right side to Hunter’s maturation as a legit major league hitter. Look at what happened in 07 - Cuddy had a freak injury running the bases early in the year and took a critical RH bat out of the lineup for 18 games, and he never got back in his rhythm. The same thing has happened this year with his hand injuries. You put a healthy Cuddyer in the lineup last year and this year, and I think you’re looking at better HR production and better production for the lineup overall. Morneau, Hunter and Cuddy all derive their power primarily from pulling the ball.
This year is a retooling year. Young is hitting the ball the other way too much, but it seems to be his own preference rather than an organization philosophy. If Cuddyer finds his form to be the hitter he’s SUPPOSED to be (a decent avg., decent obp, decent slg who can yank out 20-25/year), then you’re looking at a lineup where morneau and kubel hit for power from the left (mauer someday??), cuddyer and young (?) hit from the right. While the thoughts here on Cuddy might be wishful thinking, I think the organizational approach focuses on him being a decent threat along with Young, Kubel and Morneau. So the Twins, from a devil’s advocate point of view, have a plan for power. It just might not be working out very well.
Well I’m barely out of college, so I have a hard time trying to remember the ‘91 world series. So I have no memory of pre-TK days.
However there is a quirk in the dome that I have noticed and that I know Morneau and Young have mentioned. You look straight away center, and you see fans. That is a HUGE advantage for the pitcher. Think about it, you are looking for a pitch to hit, but it blends in with some of the fans in white. This is one reason the Dome has become a pitchers park. I think a solid “batter’s eye” out in center would help guys see the ball better. It’s a crazy philosophy, but I’m gonna go with it.
At St. Mark’s we had to sneak in our transistor radios and ear (just one ear)phones. I always thought that I had pulled one over on Sister Emma George, but I think she knew why I suddenly took to wearing long sleeves; and chose to play Sgt. Schultz.
“I ask because even if we got someone like a Beltre, is he only going to end up morphing into a real Twin??”
The idea that the Twins (or any other team/organization) would change a SUCCESSFUL power hitter is ridiculous,
An UNSUCCESSFUL hitter of any type (power or not) may very well be modified to save his career.
too much info there, Captain, but I do love hearing from the old school fans…my dad told me stories of Zoilo, Harmon, Allison, Butch Wynager, he basically made it seem like Rod Carew could steal home whenever he wanted…Bob Allison’s catch is still the second greatest defensive play in franchise history, by the way. But at the time, I was too busy idolizing Kirby and Herbie to care, I guess.
A quick topic change…can we clear up the record on the Cuddyer injury? What’s going on here? Are there broken bones that need healing or something? To me, this thing has been a mystery. Some in the media are claiming this injury has been around for a year and a half…if that’s the case, then someone really screwed up in the due diligence department.
We know Cuddy wants to be back and productive. I’m not claiming he enjoys cashing huge paychecks on the DL. But somewhere along the line something has gone terribly wrong and even though the 2008 offense is a vast improvement over 2007, the Cuddy thing-combined with the Twins’ apparent reluctance to go after a middle-of-the-lineup guy to fix it-is partially responsible for holding this offense back.
D…”this year is a retooling year?”
Really–were we to expect that Morneau would hit less HRs, Cuddy would be sitting here today with 3 HR on the year…Kubel would be sitting here with 10 doubles on the year (2 less than Cuddy, mind you)…and Mauer would have 6 HR on the year?
The “retooling” that was supposed to take place was in the starting pitching, not the offense.
Folks, Craig Monroe is third on this team in HRs and the guy never plays…that’s craziness, pure craziness.
Jason - I was referring mostly to Delmon Young, which I didn’t make very clear. The retooling has nothing to do with Morneau’s production (which is actually better than it ever has been). As for Cuddy, you can hardly attribute 3 HR solely to his lack of skill. He’s had some freak hand injuries which have undoubtedly affected his production.
I think it’s because the Twins value pitching and defense and speed so much.
It’s a little like fantasy football. If you make getting a good RB’s as a priority, you’ll wind up with middlers and dregs at QB or WR.
There aren’t all that many sure-thing power prospects to begin with. While the Twins are drafting pitchers, other clubs are gobbling up the sluggers. Also, many big power guys (thinking Papi, Manny, Giambino) are not great defenders. Unless they’re among a handful of superstars, they tend to be the kind of guys who ‘knock in two and let in three,’ as TK has said in the past.
Now he is in AA and he has doing slightly below expectations. Right now his potential looks to be a good fielding Brian Buscher
Well, he might not pan out. But his history is to struggle for a week or two after promotion and then catch up to the pitchers in that league. When he does catch up, he pounds them. That is what he did in Fort Myers, and that is what he is doing in New Britain. He’s only been up a month or so and he struggled for the first 10 days after his call-up. Since then, he’s hitting well over .300 with a lot of doubles. If you read Seth’s site regularly, you don’t just get cumulative numbers, but a sense of how a player is progressing. He’s progressing quite well. I expect he’ll hit something like .300/.350/.450 in New Britain. That’s not bad for the first go around in the Eastern League.
I think he’s a cut above Buscher. Buscher was a minor League Rule 5 draft choice for a reason: He had not progressed to the point of making the Giant’s 40-man roster in four years out of college. Valencia is on his third season and is already knocking on the door.
I think part of the problem isn’t necessarily a lack of home run power, it’s a lack of even doubles power the last couple years. It always seemed like the Jacques Jones/Corey Koskie/Torii Hunter Twins lineups that were winning division titles had at least gap-to-gap power. If Guzman or Stewart got on base, you’ve got guys who can clear the bases in a hurry even if they’re not hitting it out. This 12 singles stuff is getting real old.
I think another major problem they’re running into is the lack of production out of the #1 hole in the lineup. Maybe Span fixes that, but Gomez needs to be in AAA. He’s got too many holes right now to fix. Push back his arb clock and let him hit himself back into the big leagues.
Jason, the fact that Kubel is having 10 2B vs 13 HR is a sign that he is developing into a power hitter (home run power vs gap power). I hope it continuous. He need to work (like the rest of the Twins’ team on pitch selection). If you have a look at the beginning of the peaks of power hitters’ careers, you’ll find that the peak starts when they are starting to hit more HRs than 2B. Ortiz did that in 2001 (and the Twins released him the year after), Morneau in 2004, Ryan Howard was born with it… Hitting more HRs than 2B is a good thing
Things haven’t worked out a lot of years for recent teams that chase power (Reds, Phillies, Rangers, etc)… I’d prefer to see an emphasis on OBP and quality pitching and I think especially the emphasis on pitching with the Twins has contributed to them being in the playoffs for most of this decade. It seems to me that the Twins have drafted small, fast players in the past in an effort to get guys on base (not that it is working out for Gomez so far) and the slap bunt approach really works out well to that end, especially in the chopper dome. Plus, if you can at least put enough guys on base ahead of your one or two guys who have the potential for power, it limits the ability of the other team to not pitch since after all there are only 3 bases out there to put people on…. It doesn’t always work out that way, but it is a smarter approach than hoping for a 3 run shot every game after your pitching blows up. The problem though, and this goes maybe somewhat to not having enough money to go around, is when you do get to the playoffs you have to deal with those teams with good hitting AND good pitching (Red Sox) and I don’t know if the current incarnation of the Twins will ever figure that one out. Still, I always love listening to Hawk or Michael Kay rant about first inning bunting as it flies in the face of the White Sox/Yankees approach, but gotta love a team taking advantage of its strengths even more.
The “retooling” that was supposed to take place was in the starting pitching, not the offense.
I dunno. A rookie CF, Everett and Lamb originally as the starting left side of the lineup….
Sounds like a placeholder season to me.
I can’t add anything to the pre-T.K. discussion either, but I think the team has become much more open-minded about power in the Gardenhire years. Just look at Gomez this year. I know he hasn’t hit a bunch of homers, but does anyone think T.K. would have shown him the degree of patience that Gardy has?
Gomez takes a few cuts each game where he swings so hard he almost screws himself into the ground. T.K. wouldn’t have allowed that, but Gardy is comfortable allowing his power to develop.
Beyond that, I think it’s harder to draft for power than it is to draft for contact hitting and defense. The Twins value those skills more than power, so we draft players that can fit into our system.
You look straight away center, and you see fans. That is a HUGE advantage for the pitcher. Think about it, you are looking for a pitch to hit, but it blends in with some of the fans in white. This is one reason the Dome has become a pitchers park. I think a solid “batter’s eye” out in center would help guys see the ball better.
Hasn’t it always been that way? Didn’t seem to stop Puck and Herbie and Bruno and Chili or even Koskie and Torii from hitting 30+. I think the ‘HomerDome’ has always been more of a DoubleDome and I don’t think it’s a pitcher’s park at all. If it seems that way, I think it’s because the above-mentioned and others don’t play there anymore and they’ve been replaced by players who are less-skilled and, in some cases, (looking at you DY), less-coachable.
Again with the HRs? This season is reflective of what they’ve tried to do all along. Finances in baseball are what they are, and the thumpers aren’t generally going to come here on their own free will, they’ll have to be drafted, and when they are, they’re usually offered as trade bait for pitching which has helped to sustain competitiveness.
This is the season where it’s finally working like it should have all along. Nobody on the team is playing well beyond what’s expected of them. The .280 guys are hitting .280, the speed guys are are stealing bases and forcing defenses, and the end result is that they are (at least until the last week and a half) among the league leaders in runs scored, and they have a starting staff that’s giving them a chance day after day.
Not sure what an Adam Dunn is going to add to the mix here…
I hope Valencia improves.
But there is a reason a slick fielding 3rd baseman from BB powerhouse Miami would get picked late in the draft.
I have a feeling we will see that reason in the high minors.
You are right, there have been 30+ home run hitters in the dome, but overall home run production (by the Twins and Visitors), I believe is below average. According to ESPN’s Forecaster, the Metrodome is a pitcher’s park.
(BTW Koskie never hit 30, Torii only did it once, Kirby - once, Chili -once (as a Royal), Bruno - twice). I’m just saying.
Maybe Span fixes that, but Gomez needs to be in AAA. He’s got too many holes right now to fix.
I think AAA might benefit Go-Go offensively, but until Cuddy returns (and don’t hold your breathe on that) or the Twins acquire another OF, they cannot afford to lose Gomez defensively. Anyone who thinks putting Kubel or Monroe out there with Young and Span on a regular basis won’t be a huge defensive drop-off that will cost the team games needs a reality check.
When the Dome opened in 1982 until the 1987 season, the Twins had horrible pitching (giving up alot of homers) and some real sluggers (hitting alot of homers).
Rotoblinders…Chili hit 29. But you’re correct. Amend my post to say ~30, give or take a couple.
thrylos….I totally disagree…Kubel’s 13 HR are nice, but that’s hardly record-breaking pace…he’ll probably get to 20. Meanwhile, he only has 26 extra base hits.
I don’t want to turn this into “Free Craig Monroe”, I’m only using him as an example…but as an example…he has 8 doubles and 8 HRs in half as many at-bats as Kubel. Don’t tell me Kubel is “developing” into anything because I’ll believe that when I see it.
For the thousandth time–he is what he’s always been….an average outfielder / DH with no speed.
Fran, you are right. I was just nitpicking a little. But my point has to do with park factors.
Baseball-reference.com gives the dome a 96, where below 100 is a pitcher’s park. A team that has a short porch in right (a la Yankee Stadium) or a short, but tall wall in left (Fenway) will usually produce more homers. Think about it. How many baggie shots, or long fly ball outs by Twins players would be gone in other stadiums?
A big part of the reason the Twins lack power is that they’re constantly retooling. It has been said before that power is one of the last parts of a player’s game to develop - if that’s the case, a team full of youngsters isn’t likely to hit many home runs.
I have a question. I don’t often read all the comments here and rarely post, so I don’t know if this has been addressed yet. I wonder if the Twins are reluctant to bring up Francisco Liriano now that his agent has made this big deal of everything. Does anyone think they may be afraid to seemingly cater to him and set a precedent of caving to the wishes of agents? Curious of everyone’s thoughts (I’ll read the comments this time).
having an actual grey beard the twins of the 60’s were one of the highest hitting hr teams yr after yr. allison, killer, tommy hall, tony o and others all hit homeruns. after free agency and the salaries started to increase the hr hitters cost more and by the time calvin sold out the team had been thru a long streak of poor play (bombo, disco danny). the 80’s kind of brought back the heavy hitters in herby, kirby, bruno, gman etc. when the other mcphail left it seems the org. started drafting toolsie players which continues today. hunter, jj as an example with hunter later hitting hr) these guys probably cost less to draft and have a better chance to make it. a lot of power hitters lose their power when they see that first big league slider. young had good hr #’s in a and aa but in aaa and the ml he hasn’t. looking at the top prospects we have they are nearly all toolsie players little or med. power that can run and hit for ave. case in point they drafted the miami relief pitcher and let the hr hitting 3b go by this summer. not that we could use a power hitting 3b. every org has what they like some like hard throwing pitchers we like guys that throw strikes and don’t walk people a joel zumya wouldn’t last long here.
Thanks, GGG. Great points made.
after Twin’s made Kirby the highest paid player at 3M a year for about 3 seconds the financial landscape of MLB changed… Twins no longer drafted the G-man’s, Hrbeks, they started drafting nothing but speed “toolsy’ guys in the 1st and 2nd rounds.. they stock piled pitching and went “small ball” their approach will keep the team competitive but will never make them a real contender need stats?
1) no playoffs from 1992 until 2002
2)Gardy’s playoff record 6 - 21
Billy has started to trade some pitchers for OTHER TEAM’S sluggers to regain but for Twins to truly be long-term CONTENDERS they need to take a 1st round slugger too
I don’t think the Twins are going to make any decisions based on what Liriano’s agent does and that seems to be the consensus among everybody I’ve heard say anything about it. I think itd be much more likely that the Twins were trying to save a few bucks or trying to avoid having this year count toward a year of service time under the contract before they were trying to exact revenge against L’s agent. I’m sure they are more likely waiting for one of the current pitchers to make the decision for them as to who should be replaced in the rotation and based on the last series I’d say we’re getting close (Slowey/Perkins!)
I’ll entertain any conspiracy theory regarding Liriano at this point as it is abundantly clear that he belongs in the Big Leagues.
Think what this lineup would look like if the Twins had traded Garza for Josh Hamilton instead of Delmon Young. I would be suprised if the Twins didn’t have 8-10 more wins if Hamilton had been in this lineup.
It’s a mystery why Valencia fell so far in the draft. I watched the CWS in his junior year and I thought he was the best player on the field. His regular season numbers suffered because of some kind of injury. But he was healthy and raking in the CWS. And he is very slick around third with a Dave Hollins-style rocket arm.
Rumor has it scouts thought he was going back for his senior year. Then his coach told him if he returned, he was going to be a closer/first baseman and not a third baseman. I don’t think his coach cared that much for him for whatever reason. I’ve been there, which might be why I’ve followed him since the draft. So he signed with the Twins.
How many times do I have to say this. Whether Liriano had been called up a month ago or is called up next week it doesn’t effect his service time now. Unless he had been called up at the beginning of June he wasn’t going to make the service time he wanted after this year anyway. This agent has made a baseless claim that has nothing to back it up. Liriano will be called up in the next week or two and his service time won’t suffer unless he is injured again causing him to do another rehab stint in the minors. It actually was in Liriano’s best interest to stay in the minors until his strength was back to 100% to help avoid an injury in the future.
he has 8 doubles and 8 HRs in half as many at-bats as Kubel.
And a delightful .203 AVG. So if Kubel’s can’t protect Morneau…how do you expect Monroe to do any better?
Think what this lineup would look like if the Twins had traded Garza for Josh Hamilton instead of Delmon Young.
People keep saying that…but was that ever an option?
I would hope the Twins would slot Liriano vs the Whities on Monday.
“Think what this lineup would look like if the Twins had traded Garza for Josh Hamilton instead of Delmon Young.
People keep saying that…but was that ever an option?”
I’m gonna go with NO. They were looking for a RH bat. Hamilton just would’ve added another solid LH bat to the lineup already full of lefties. Good point on Monroe by the way.
Here’s how I see the HR debate. HR are sexy. Base hits with RISP get the job done. It’s like in golf. JB Holmes crushes the ball 330 just about every time. However, Tiger is one of the best putters on tour, which brings in the victories for him.
I agree generally, T. But the .203 avg. is based on about 150 ABs….Kubel’s delightful .259 average is based on nearly 300 ABs…
Monroe could get to .265 if he went 15 for his next 20….as an example…but either way, there is a hole there…
Hamilton is just a solid bat? The guy would be the Twins best player if he was on the team this year. I don’t care if he was a lefty, righty or hit it facing backwards, this team should be looking for offensive production from wherever they can get it. The Yankees seem to have done okay with a lineup full of lefties in the past.
I am just looking at it in hindsight. Garza was most likely worth more than Volquez at the time of the trade so I am assuming that the Reds would have done the deal. I suppose with the way the Twins like slap hitters Hamilton wouldn’t have fit in with the team.
But we didn’t know Hamilton would produce this way going into the year. Now, yes, I’d gladly take his bat and plug it into the lineup. However, all things being equal, Delmon had just as much if not more upside than Hamilton back in February.
Hamilton would have 20-30 fewer RBIs had he been in this lineup I’m sure.
GGG,
Jimmy Hall.
imo the reds got a much better pitcher than garza for hamilton. as t said who knows if that was even an option. i doubt the twins even considered it with his background, nobody could see this yr happening or every team would have tried to trade for him.
and young is the best lf we’ve had in 20 yrs. not hitting hr’s aside his overall game is the best we’ve had. now tampa is looking for a rh bat their rf is not good and we replaced garza with blackburn and his record is about the same. the good thing is young seems to be improving and learning from his mistakes. he isn’t always perfect in the field but he also hasn’t made any errors in a long time, they all came in a bunch.
gomez, span, casilla and young will take some time and cause much angst but “could” all become very good players.
Hamilton is going to be much, much more expensive than Delmon very shortly. And he’s also five years older.
Jason - Kubel has been hitting righties pretty well this year, but has struggled pretty bad against lefties, which accounts for his low batting average. So why do we bat him against lefties? Because the player we acquired to be his dh platoon partner, the one who was supposed to be able to hit lefties, has been absolutely horrible against them this year. So you can say monroe has a low ba b/c he isn’t getting enough playing time, I’m going to say Kubel has a low ba b/c monroe hasn’t been able to do his job.
you know.. no one talks about this but i think the big bat behind morneau should be texiera. if we wanna make a push this year.. it wouldnt be hard too get him either since its only a 2 month rental..
i think bonser bass and buscher could get him.
lineup.
gomez cf
casilla 2b
mauer c
morneau 1b/dh
texiera dh/1b
kubel rf
young lf
harris 3b
punto ss
also another thought is i think there should be a 6 man rotation.. that way the young kids get more rest. second liriano could stay with his old form while getting more rest so he doesnt injure his arm again.. third you get too see less starts by livan. and 4th the kids are playing well enough too be able too go with a 6th man.
rotation:
liriano
baker
slowey
perkins
blackburn
livan
thoughts?
Bonser, Bass, and Buscher wouldn’t get the Twins Jason Tyner and a bag of sunflower seeds.
liondragen, as much as I’d love that trade. It will take A LOT LOT more than just Bass, Buscher, and Bonser to get Tex. It will take at least what Atlanta gave up for him, if not more.
no way.. cause they payed for 2 years of texiera while we would only get 2 months.. unless we could sign him also too a contract it should only take 2 b prospects. which bonser and buscher are.. they wanted youkalis and hansen for texiera ok.. those are equal too buscher bass and bonser.. if you want though you can replace bass with mulvey
liondragon,
“they wanted youkalis and hansen for texiera ok.. those are equal too buscher bass and bonser”
Say, what?
Youk was the AL ALL-STAR FIRST-BASEMAN ahead of Morneau!
And he alone is better than those three Twins spare parts.
Bass and Bonser are DFA’d by the blog 50 times per day.
Buscher is a scatter-armed 3B who may become a back-up 1B, if his throwing accuracy doesn’t improve above the horse-crap level.
Your trade suggestions are, as always, one-sided.
The Twins have two of the most boneheaded managers and one of the same kind of GMsfor a long time.Util they get Gardy, TK, and TR completely out of the system these are the type of hitters they will have. The players on this team dont have much bat speed or coached to slap hit.What did gardy or TK ever know about hitting except it was hard to do?
Jason,
Kubel OPSing .778 out of the DH spot, not the problem. No power to speak of from LF, CF, RF, 3B, SS and 2B, the problem. I grant you Kubel is a complimentary player and on a team with more than one legit power threat his talents would be magnified. Since he is counted on as the second Power/Run producer of course he looks inadequate. Get over it!!!
I have high hopes for Delmon, as I am sure the orgainzation does, but the White Sox gave up a Strikeout prone, no field, Homer happy 1B for Carlos Quentin and we gave up a future ace, and a qulity bullpen arm for DY (the bartlett bit bores me so I exclude him here). Tell me that we couldn’t have found someone in our Minor league system that would have fetched us Quentin. Garza, was a better prospect than Volquez we could have easily gotten Hamilton for that price.
Texiera,
it won’t take as much as ATL gave up due to him now being a 2 month rental. But it would take one of our starters… plus something like Revere and Manship
The Twins of today look nothing like the 60’s (Killebrew, Allison, Oliva) or the 80’s (Hrbek, Gaetti, Bruno) because the organization has subscribed to modified Charlie Lau theories of hitting. Take pitches, work the count, slap the ball to the opposite field, getting “on top” of the ball (creating overspin) and minimizing lift in the swing plane. These principals are taught at every level of the Twins organization. Even Harmon himself would have a problem hitting 30 HRs with the Twins hitting edict applied to him (Frank Thomas was the only recent/notable HR threat using Lau’s approach). These theories obviously create higher average hitters (see George Brett & Wade Boggs and now Joe Mauer) which fit perfectly with the Metrodome turf conditions. I’m hoping for a change in the new ballpark but I won’t get my hopes up because as someone else pointed out, “Punch & Judy” hitters cost less than the home run hitters.
who cares about power, i love how the twins win the old fashion way with players developed in their own system and a small payroll. the twins are fun to root for thats what makes it so great when they make the playoffs and even better when the beat the spoiled multi-million dollar brats like the yankee’s and red sox. however a reduction in power could be they have turned off bobby valentine’s fans in the dome.
i read that the twins probably won’t make a trade because they don’t want to screw up team chemistry. imo that already happened yesterday.
giving up a couple top prospects for beltre is an easy call, we have 4+ liriano young starters. we have 6-7 of our top prospects pitchers. where do all these guys fit?
swarzak, manship, robertson, mulvey, duensing, sosa, mccardell, mullins ….. take your pick. no room for all these guys but we have a lot of room for a beltre type player. the only guy i’d hold back is guerra because he is the youngest, maybe highest upside. our top position players are toolsie of’s, think we have enough of them?
Wow, in reading Tony and Brent’s comments, you’d almost think that Kubel is to be regarded as an average, some-of-the-time, fill-in / complimentary player…not the ready-to-pop superstar with the most talent of any Twins minor leaguer since Puckett who–just wait–is about to go bananas at any moment…
Where are the 10,000 bloggers to set the story straight on this?
smallball says:
July 24th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
who cares about power, i love how the twins win the old fashion way with players developed in their own system and a small payroll.
Lets’s see; casilla-angels, punto-phillies, harris-rays, buscher-giants, young-rays, gomez-mets, not exactly home grown talent.
Of the starting 10 yesterday only perkins, morneau and span were our draft picks.
What about Blalock instead of Beltre at 3rd? I read that the Twins have expressed interest. It looks like he might actually be healthy now and he’s hit close to 25 hr/100 RBI every full year that he’s played (4). That production might drop off a bit considering the players that would be batting around him here and that he’d be switching from Arlington to the dome, but he’s only making 6M next year so the Twins could potentially keep him beyond two months.
I see where A. Everett is ready to go to re-hab at AAA Rochester. Who goes when he’s ready to come up? And who goes when Cuddy is ready?
Regarding Texiera, I proposed his name yesterday as a person to pursue rather than Beltre. If I recall, Texiera was a third baseman who was converted to first base by the Rangers because they had Hank Blalock slated for 3B. He’s a switch hitter with power with an uppercut LH swing to fit the dome. He’s from the same class as Mauer (2001) and appears to be a quality person. Maybe he’d like to play here and get the hell away from the irascible Bobby Cox. Just an observation.
mlb trade rumor about 1/2 hour ago:
“At least five teams are in on Casey Blake, including the Twins. However the Twins seem to prefer Hank Blalock. I like the Blalock idea for the Twins.”
my comments;
another lh 3b (already have 2) and dl canidate that hasn’t hit many hr’s since testing started and then began to get hurt all the time. just asking? could that be tied together?
Jason, I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion off of what either of us wrote. Kubel has been the Twins 3rd best offensive player. I wouldn’t call him a fill-in or complemantary player.
The Twins play an exciting brand of baseball that does not rely on home runs. I don’t have a problem with that. I long ago gave up the fantasy that the tea would revert to the 60’s slugging teams. Those teams scored a lot of runs, but what made them go was their pitching. The same can be said of the Twins of the TK/TR era.
One of our prospects, Mulvey pitched today and put up the following line before the game was called because of rain.
5 IP, 4 H, 0 BB, 2 K, 1 HR, 1 ER, 70 pitches thrown
Last 10 games:
56.1 IP, 50 H, 12 BB, 43 K, 6 HR, 1.10 WHIP and 3.67 ERA
Howard,
Here’s a question for you.
What happened to the Twins baserunning? At the beginning of the season they were stealing multiple bases every game. It isn’t only Gomez but the team in general. For a team that has very little power and needs to manufacture runs however possible why aren’t they more aggresive on the base paths?
People who are dissing TK as a developer of power hitting should remember that it was TK who brought in Hrbek, Gaetti, and Brunansky, all of whom could hit with power. TK was also responsible for turning Kirby Puckett from a slap hitter into somebody who could jack one during any at bat, but still hit for high average.
Blalock would be a TERRIBLE player to go and get. Not only is he just another left handed bat in a lineup full of them, he is a bad hitter away from Texas. His career numbers away from Arlington are .244 / .301 / .399. Why not just roll with Buscher at that point? It isn’t like Blalock is an amazing defender or anything.
too many players were stretching singles into doubles and doubles into triples.. we can’t have that, remember we hate extra base hits!!
Pucket’s power was developed by Tony Oliva - he helped Puck with his leg kick that kept him more balanced able to generate consistent power..
What about Edwin Encarnacion, Melvin Mora, Bill Hall, or Dallas McPherson. Just a few names of RH third basemen that really hit left handed pitching well and can hit for some power.
“People who are dissing TK as a developer of power hitting should remember that it was TK who brought in Hrbek, Gaetti, and Brunansky, all of whom could hit with power.”
tk didn’t take over the twins until the end of the 86 season and these guys already had played several yrs on the tiwns. if i recall these guys all came up in 84 bruno maybe 86 came over from angels
“Jason, I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion off of what either of us wrote. Kubel has been the Twins 3rd best offensive player. I wouldn’t call him a fill-in or complemantary player.”
Well, here’s what you wrote:
“Because the player we acquired to be his dh platoon partner, the one who was supposed to be able to hit lefties, has been absolutely horrible against them this year. So you can say monroe has a low ba b/c he isn’t getting enough playing time, I’m going to say Kubel has a low ba b/c monroe hasn’t been able to do his job.”
To me, that sounds like you regard Kubel as a complimentary (Platoon) player.
Now, as to your conclusion that he is our third best hitter…I would submit that he is actually our sixth best hitter right now (behind Morneau, Mauer, Casilla, Young, and Span). In either case, my point was he is not the type of hitter that the masses have claimed he would be come and he has not embraced the 5-hole in Cuddy’s absence…which is too bad for us, I guess.
sorry herby and g-man came up in 81 and they traded for bruno early in the 82 season. don’t know if tk was even on the coaching staff at that time. maybe a minor league coach and could have coached some of them in the minors. worst trade they ever made trading bruno for tommy herr. terrible trade!!!
Complimentary read: compliments others in the lineup with good play and good hitting, not going to carry the load offensively and compete for batting titles and MVP’s. Will enhance a lineup. should be batting 6th or 7th and should not be substituted for hacky, has beens or light hitting OF’s (i’m looking at you Monroe).
Valencia’s poor start at AA was very unlucky (see below). That said, I don’t think of him as a legitimate pure power guy. I wrote this in a thingee I did on the Twins farm system:
He had a brtual start in mid-June with New Britain after posting a .920 OPS at Ft. Myers, but it was HUGELY unlucky: his K% didn’t jump at all initially and his June AA BABIP was .229 despite an 18 LD%. In general he strikes out a bit but has consistently posted good BABIP numbers at every stop (due in part to his very low popup rate), which for me points to Real Deal. His diminished SLG at Ft. Myers in 2007 could be the exception, not the rule, as his flyball numbers were off from his and average player norms. While he’s started to hit in July, he’s forgotten how to walk and is striking out at a frightening clip. I’m very curious to see how the rest of the season treats him: I smell continued progress, and the Twins could really use a lefty-killing right-handed hitter like him.
full twins prospect BABIP-heavy analysis write up here:
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=22541021
Gobbledygookguy’s first post above has the answer to the question posed at the beginning. Calvin Griffith was always known to the fans as a cheapskate, never wanting to pay anybody. For those of you too young to remember, Free Agency only came in to being in the early/mid-’70s, and only really blossomed later as a major salary inflator.
Once it was in place, Calvin would not spend the money - thus the days of the elite power hitters declined, and the front office began to groom administrators who had to get value. Elite power hitters do not beget value - they cost far more than the vast majority of them actually produce in terms of wins. so the front office (and remember - most of these guys have grown up in the Twins’ administration) developed a strategy that was disinclined to pursue power in exchange for solid, although not usually elite, pitching (usually affordable); great defense (always VERY undervalued); and quality hitters-for-average.
In addition, they developed a policy to take the PR hit (with only a few major notable exceptions), and not get into big free-agency bidding wars since the price was always bid up beyond the players real value. It’s a pretty “smart” strategy - compare the Twins payroll dollars per win to most other teams over the past several years (even though it frustrates the fans who are lusting to see the long bombs).
So, I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for the Twins to become a power-laden team. While I miss seeing the Killebrew-Oliva-Allison like line-up of my youth, I believe that if the Twins went that way now, we’d just turn into a northern version of the Texas Rangers. Yeccch.
My take on the lack of power. 1) Org doesn’t emphasize it - prefers pitching and defense first; 2) power hitters harder to find, groom, and be successful if focus isn’t to do so; 3) steroid era is over; 4) TK era in the dome (bad ceiling, very hard turf) preferred to limit teams to 27 outs with solid defense, and HRs were sacrificed for defense. Looks like the organization is trying for more power in the last few drafts, gearing up for the move to the new stadium.
The key player to look at isn’t Ortiz, it’s Guzzy. He was one of the brightest prospects in the game when he was ripping the ball into the right field corner for tripples 20 times/year. He drove the ball all over the field. The organization wanted a Castillo instead of a Granderson, and made him into a slap hitter. Nearly ended his career. He’s back to driving the ball now, and he leads the NL in hits. Lew Ford was a dead pull hitter who couldn’t adjust and ended up in Japan.
Note, Jacque Jones started out with opposite field power, and went to left almost exclusively. Ditto A.J. Both of them learned to pull the ball, both showed better power, and both went from .300 hitters to .260 hitters. Same to some extent for Koskie.
I don’t think you should really mess with a player’s swing. If he’s good enough to get to the show doing what he does, let him figure it out. If a player’s struggling, or can’t get to a pitch, you can work on some things for certain situations, but their mentality as a hitter shouldn’t change.
BTW, has Morneau hit any homers to left this year? I remember him hitting quite a few line drives into the left field seats the last few years, they’re doubles this year.
Echo sentiments about power costing money.
Playoff Power: In order to win without power, you need a steady lineup. You can’t have automatic outs if you have to get 3 hits in a row to score. Good Twins teams have been solid 1-9 with no give aways. The Twins struggle when even a single piece struggles. Think .290 Punto v. .200 punto. Part of staying out of slumps is putting the ball in play and driving the ball the opposite way.
The lack of power is most apparent when facing strong pitching. A great pitcher typical of what you face in a playoff series may make only 5-10 mistake pitches per game. The odds of getting 3 hits in a row is slim. Someone has to put one in the seats. Remember Zito v. Santana when the Twins outhit the A’s, but Frank Thomas had 2 jacks. Baker pitched a great game the other night. If Texas’ catcher hits a single, no biggie, but he hit out for the only run of the game.
Jason,
For the sake of semantics… Much to his chagrin, Hrbek was a platoon hitter under TK, and he was not considered a complementary player. Kubel is a less complete player, but I do not think the above poster intended to refer to him as some type of role player.
I think it is relevant to put into context that the 70’s and 80’s were known as the dead-ball era, so the Twins teams of the early 80’s, while not having multiple 30-HR seasons from guys like Hrbek, Bruno, G-man, and Puck, they did provide quite a bit of power for that period.
Bruno I think had the most power of the lot, as ggg mentioned that trade to STL was terrible. They should have asked Herr if he even wanted to come here!
Kirby hit 0 HR his rookie year, I remember reading a Bill James publication that year that predicted like 30 lifetime homeruns and virtually no shot at the HOF for him.
Hrbek is somewhat of a local legend but his numbers would have been much higher if he took care of himself better. My dad used to complain that every time he slid (flopped, as he would say) into 2nd base he would have to go on the DL for 2 weeks.
I agree that Calvin/Carl are the main reason why you haven’t seen a lot of power recently. Players like that are simply too expensive, unless you can groom them yourself.
we can spin it that power is overrated blah blah blah.. but tell me since 1992 - how far as the Team’s philosphy gotten them in playoff wins(the only thing that should matter)4 divison crowns when the rest of the division was terrible and 1 playoff series win ..wooohoooo ’small ball’ unbalanced with SOME power is great !!
this org. needs to balance the system out with some power, and to their credit they have made some baby steps.. the day the team drafts a power hitter in the 1st round that deserves to be taken in their slot is when I know they are truly trying for some balance and a healthy change
Great topic….A frustration of mine as well.
In the 8th or 9th innning, the Twins have never had some stud to possibly hit a bomb to tie or win it. They have tried with guys like Don Baylor, Chili Davis or Butch Huskey to name a select few.
How come we always have to piece together 3-4 hits in the late innings to forge a tie. Aren’t good teams able to get a couple baserunners on and then bring in some guy “off the bench” to potentially jack one to tie. Piazza would have been a nice effort or someone with power to give us hope.
I guess we simply have to rely on the drag bunt, slap to left single, and a gapper to maybe tie.
What about the concept that some of these average players are even batting in the 8th and 9th when we are down.
Will anyone ever forget the Michael Ryan at bat “off the bench” against the Yankees where he swung at a pitch over his head with two runners on at Metrodome?
Punto, Macri, Tolbert, Herr, Cubbage, Rivera, Moses, Stahoviak come to the plate with two runners on down by three is an absolute joke. At least give the team a chance!
Geez, put Slowey up as a pinch hitter in the 9th instead.
As T. Ryan used to say on CCO’ every Sunday morning…”we like him”, “he needs more minor league at-bats”, “he’s just not seeing the ball right now”, “he’s having a great spring, but simply needs to play everyday at AAA”
whatever….
PS..Punto, Bonser, Lamb, and Busher to the Mariners for Beltre? How can you put a pricetag on grit?
“4 divison crowns when the rest of the division was terrible and 1 playoff series win ..wooohoooo ’small ball’ unbalanced with SOME power is great !!”
This argument is silly. Of the 14 AL teams, only 4 (Yankees, Red Sox, Indians, and A’s) have made it to the playoffs more times than the Twins have since they introduced the Wild Card. Twice in the playoffs they have lost in the first round to the New York Yankees - who, I am sure you know, have the highest payroll in the sport. Blaming the Twins for not winning those series is pretty silly. The Twins SHOULDN’T win those series.
I’ve been a fan since my dad took me to a game at the old Met when I was 8 in 1965.
I think it is just a fuction of the current baseball system.
When the reserve clause was legal, teams had players for life. So as players matured they develped the power skill and it was a natural progression.
Now the system is different and you only have players locked in for 5-6 years.
Power tends to be skill that takes time to learn and develop. Example, Kirby Pucket not hitting for power his first few years and then developing into a 30 per year guy. Same with other players.
The Twins have always been a team that developes players and then when the cost of keeping them gets past a certain point they get traded or move on through free agency. That appears to be about the same time that the power skill starts maturing.
So I don’t know which comes first, the chicken or egg. Do players only mature to develop power when they are about to leave? Or, does the Twins system focus on developing other skills because working on power won’t help the Twins because by the time it comes out, the player will have moved on.
I don’t know but it an interesting question.
I wonder how many home runs Delmon Young would have if he were playing for the White Sox. It seems like that organization would rather have a .240 hitter who can hit 30 home runs.
Holes in the system? I saw that somewhere. Fellas, I love this question but it seems very evident to me that a higher amount of the early picks are spent on pitching and that’s the choice. BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE, with this organizations track record over the last 8 years of competing year in year out, In general there are no organizational holes. NEEDS yes but an organizational hole is the state of the Texas Rangers pitching situation. You just have to decide what you are going to focus on, for us it’s pitching then you draft guys who can field,run & hit for average and probably in that order. It’s old fashioned beisbol gang it was chosen as our focus for the last twenty five years. I do think we could teach some power hitting better, don’t get me wrong but in general I just think the lack of power is a bi-product of focusing on pitching early on via the draft. **Considering the first ten rounds as “early”**
I might add that I don’t want to trade any arms right now either. We are on the verge of having a real possible #1 who is young and locked up with about five # 2 or 3 starters following him in the rotation. ALSO I get as frustrated as the rest of us with this team but we are spoiled. We have direction and a clear plan, heck half of baseball fans in this country can look at their teams and seriously wonder if there is ANY plan.
One thing you always notice about teams with power is that there usually are more than one power hitter on teams with lots of power- ie they can’t pitch around the big knockers. Ortiz did not magically get a different swing in Boston, he hit in front of Manny, which means he got better pitches to hit. The power of the 65 era Twins was the center of Allison, Killebrew, Reese, Oliva and others. The pitchers have to pick their poison. The run scoring this year comes from there not being any major holes in the line-up- no easy slots. And when Gomez went into the tank, suddenly the run production dropped, they have two holes in the hitting lineup- the Gomez spot and the end of the lineup with either Punto, Gomez (now) and Harris, who are a bit more streaky. When we were winning lots of games, the M’s, Young, Casilla all were hot and all got good looks. And in the big picture, it costs a lot of money to keep a loaded lineup with lots of power, which is not the Twin’s MO
last i followed it, team with the most RUNS wins. twinks are dead last in the american league in HOME runs but fifth in the league in runs scored.
” Ninety feet between bases is perhaps as close as man will ever come to perfection.”
~ Red Smith
tom “home runs are often boring”p
I’m old enough to remember the 4 back to back HRs vs. Kansas City… the Twins have seemed to go toward leaner, more lith bodies (Morneau, at least, excluded) post Ortiz. I wonder if it’s the TK/upper management philosopy that dictates to avoide the bigger upper boy dude vs. the “all-around athlete”, or pitching?
It is disheartening to not have a mindset to have someone (other than Craig Monroe) be brought to the team as a big knocker.
It all started when Calvin Griffith’s scouts were phased out after the Pohlad sale. Bob Gebhard and Andy MacPhail brought in a new scouting corps that was primarily National League-based. Gebhard came from Montreal and if memory serves brought a large number of scouts with him. Griffith’s scouts looked for power…these guys did not.
Looks like I missed a good discussion today. Hate it when work keeps me occupied and I can’t keep up here!
I haven’t read through the comments so I would guess another ‘grey hair’ like me has probably already mentioned what I’m going to say.
When the Twins moved in to the Dome, they left the real grass of Met Stadium and began playing home games on green carpeted cement. In addition, that baggy in RF wasn’t there initially and pretty much anyone could hit HRs to RF. With the way the ball skips so fast on the old fashioned Astroturf, you needed speed at pretty much every IF and OF position. There was no longer a premium placed on big (slow) power hitters. You couldn’t afford to play them anywhere but perhaps 1B and DH.
So… a combination of needing speed/quickness on defense and not really needing traditional power in order to hit HRs out of the Dome in the early years meant you drafted and coached to fit your home field.
Thats my theory, in any event.
I’ve been a fan long enough that I’m no longer one, really, but stumbled in here today.
If I had to characterize the Twins organization’s hitting style over the last couple of decades, I’d say they deprecate plate discipline almost as much as they do pulling the ball. Those two qualities do not result in a lot of long shots. What we’ve had over the years, even high in the order, is guys who swing and put the ball in play. Joe Mauer is a notable exception. This team’s history is full of Dan Gladdens and Mickey Hatchers, though — guys who’ll take a hack, not sure eyes who watch a lot of pitches. That goes to both talent and coaching.
The big power years in franchise history — ‘87 for example — I now regard as tainted by the steroid era. I strongly suspect all the major Twins players in those years, possibly barring Hrbek. It’s hard to understand the low-power rule based on that exception.
(After the air conditioning was all in place in the new dome, homers fell off. The Metrodome, back in the late 1980s and 90s, was really more a “doubles dome” than a “homer dome.” Home run rates there were not atypical, but its rate of doubles, for both the home team and the visitors, was highest in the league. Kirby Puckett’s lines over the years show that in a big way. I’m not sure if that trend is still true, not having followed the team much of late.)
If the team could package Kubel and the starter who’s going to be moved out in favor of Liriano for a power hitting 3B, I would be all for it.
Aside from 2006 and 1987, I guess the Killebrew teams were the only ones with true multiple power threats. Although I love how the Twins stress fundamental baseball (pitching and defense), I for one would love a few more dingers.
With all that said, let’s realize for a moment that despite all the crying, we have one of the best run and most successful organizations in sports. Not just baseball. I guess we all want a bit more than winning seasons and good citizens.
It’s true that the post-Killebrew teams of Bostock, Hisle, Smalley, et al, did not hit for much power, even before the opening of the Dome.
My suspicions:
#1, the Twins organization considers it safer to draft for speed, pitching, etc. than to try to project the power potential of high-school or college kids. You can time a player to 1st base, put the gun on a pitcher’s fastball, etc. - there’s no similar measure of power potential.
#2, aluminum bats significantly complicate projecting power potential - kids can put up huge numbers with aluminum only to have them pretty much disappear the moment the bat starts shattering in their hands.
#3, Big power hitters discombobulate payroll. Having the kid for 5 years doesn’t cut it - just as he really starts to hit his stride, he’s leaving as a free agent or he’s costing you pieces you need elsewhere because he’s sucking up too much of the payroll budget.
Plus losing that type of player is lousy P.R.
Haven’t the real “Power” teams went out and bought their Power? Hamilton in Texas, Thome in Chicago, all nine guys in Detroit (or so it seems)? Twins could have had anyone of those guys. (Thome was available) We just need to open the purse strings (for Thome). I’ve always thought it is a mistake to run a sports team like a business and you should try to obtain the guys who sell tickets (like Thome). The Twins are a billionaire’s hobby, throw more money at your hobby.
I know I do.
Been a Twins fan since the days of Carew, Oliva, Tovar and Killebrew. Plenty of power those days. Take it up a few years and it doesn’t return until Hrbek, Brunansky, Gaetti and Puckett. When free agency arrived, the glamor guys, “chicks did the long ball” go get the big money. Power usually develops with age. Seems to coincide with the time they reach free agency. Torii is a good example. Also, fundamental baseball means moving runners along. Fly balls and pop ups don’t accomplish much when a guys on first base. Morneau is a good hitter with power. Power hitters who just hit for power aren’t going to make it as Twins. They will fall in the AAAA category. Guys like Garrett Jones. Pretty hard to find triple crown type hitters like Morneau. Delmon Young may fit that mold someday or Jason Kubel. At one time Cuddyer was thought to have that potential and Mauer may develop enough power to hit 20 homers. But the reality is, it’s better to have good hitters rather than straight power hitters. Right now, we don’t have enough good hitters. Harris has been disappointing, Gomez is floundering, Young has just found his timing, Cuddyer is hurt but Span is filling in admirably. We could use a .300 hitter playing shortstop (and no Punto isn’t a .300 hitter) and Gomez should probably be back in AAA until he can hit .275.
Absolutely right, Delaware! The key is your statement: ” the glamor guys go get the big money.” Let the money be right here! I will always be mad about Jim Thome. I’ve been incessently ranting about getting him for years. He helped Cleveland to first place and couple of second place finishes in Philly. Now in Chicago, he’s helping them hold first place. You’ve got to spend money to make money! ! !
I know someone mentioned park factors but has anyone seen the one year park factors for the dome? Batting - 92 and Pitching - 93! Those numbers are the second lowest in the AL, both second only to Oakland, but I think we all know why that is. Maybe the Metrodome with all that pressure has become the Anti-Coors Field. Does anyone have a de-humidor by chance?
Pardon me if the obvious has already been said…but could the drop off in homers at the dome have less to do with the dome and more to do with the fact the team that plays in it can’t hit them?
It seems like balls fly out of that park quite a bit…just moreso for the opposing team.
Hamilton in Texas
I think Hamilton was a trade with Cincy. I’m pretty sure he came fairly cheap.
I keep hearing that the Twins should’ve dealt Garza for him instead of Young. And I’ve yet to see anybody respond to my question as to if that was ever an option.
Thanks for the topic that isn’t:
- trade trade trade
- here’s my lineup
- OBP!
Personally I care about runs, not homeruns, but it’s nice to see a focused discussion.
T
Why wasn’t Garza for Hamilton an option?
Garza was regarded as a better pitcher than Volquez and that’s what the Rangers traded for Hamilton. Of course it was an option, the Twins obviously chose not to persue it and go with a younger guy in Young.
jama, T:
I think Volquez was seen as having a higher upside than Garza last winter.
Also, Hamilton was injured pretty often last season (played 90 games) and there were concerns around MLB about his durability after not playing for several years.
As for Howard’s question: Sad to say, but I’ve been watching the Twins since the Killebrew-Oliva era. While I didn’t read all the posts, my impression is that the TK-led power decline has largely been a result of the organization stressing defense first, coupled with budget ball. Look around the league; how many sluggers are top notch defensive players? A draftee with these tools gets drafted early and commands a high signing bonus, which rules out the Twins in most cases. And many of the league’s sluggers are not with their original teams via free agency; ruling out the Twins again. The Brewers hit a lot of home runs, but are willing to put up with some weak defenders. That will hurt them if they make the playoffs. Morneau isn’t hitting homeruns this year because they’re pitching around him. Budget ball teams with only one slugger and a host of undisciplined hitters don’t lead to as many pitches that can be driven over the fence. There are lots of reasons why the Twin’s don’t hit many homeruns, and Vavra’s coaching is only one of them.
I agree with most of what ggg stated earlier. I didn’t read all the responses.
I’ve been attending Twins games since opening day, 1961. Those early years the team had alot of long ball hitters. We also had hitters that used the whole field, like Oliva, followed by Carew.
I really think the approach changed with TK, and has remained that way til now. TK still has his say, ya know. TK also trumped TR on some of his decisions. A few disappointed me, as I felt TR was correct.
Gardy was influenced by TK and still is. I don’t see things changing while he’s at the helm.
Speaking of injury problems, Kerry Wood back on the DL for the Cubs.
12th time in a 10 year career.
That’s unfortunate.
just a blister on his throwing hand with Wood. We’re not talking about a long term thing here I don’t think.
I’ve been a huge Twins fan since my childhood in the 60’s…I remember being on my school bus home when the ‘65 World Series ended…remember day games in the Series?
Anyway, I think it’s simple economics. The Twins have had a legacy of power hitters, certainly with Killebrew, Mincher, Allison, Oliva etc. But even through the ‘91 series they had five 20 homerun guys if I remember correctly, (led by Hrbek, Puckett, Chili Davis…) but then power hitters just became flat out unaffordable for small revenue teams during the juiced era. When you look at it you won’t find many on the small market rosters (Minnesota, Oakland, Pittsburgh, etc.) You’ll find them all on the Yankees, Bosox, White Sox, Mets, Angels and so on.) This may even color who the teams draft - knowing that big power guys will soon be unaffordable might push you to draft the Ben Revere types instead. I can’t think of too manay Twins who started with power but were trained to lose it - Delmon Young possibly excepted - but then again I don’t get the impression he’s even listening much to our coaches.
I agree that economics is the main reason. Take the big-name power hitters in the game: Pujols, Rodriguez, Berkman. You can count on these guys to put up 1.000 OPSes just about every year. However, this year Morneau (for example) has an OPS around .900, and is being paid about $4.5M, while A-Rod is OPSing about 1.000 and making $27M. That’s where the economics don’t make sense - the price doesn’t increase proportionally to production. While it would be nice to have that extra 10 - 20% boost in production, the 500% increase in cost makes it prohibitive. It’s also the reason Santana left - he’s better than any of our current starters, but his salary is about 40 times as much as our young guys. Santana may be good, but he’s not that good. In my opinion (and the Twins, I think), nobody is.
HOWARD, I AM MOST FLATTERED!!
Here I take an off day from the blog along with the Twins off day, come back and find I’m at the center of today’s entire blog. Now, can I get a “cut” of your Strib “compensation??” :)
Unfortunately I don’t have the time right now to read all the responses but will most certainly do that later. I just happen to see in my peripheral vision the most recent post right above my comment box and would like to point out that I made some comments about economics on the original thread where my question was posed.
Other than the outrageous signing bonuses that agents like Boras have created, I think economics is a lame excuse. Look at the Rays…of course being in the cellar all these years has given them the advantage of drafting first or near first for years and having their pick of the best hitters and pitchers out there. But can anyone tell me with a straight face that with the crowds at the Trop prior to this year (crowds which could fit into a phone booth, if you can even find a phone booth anywhere any more, with room to spare) that the Rays were any bigger a market than the Twins or had any more revenue than the Twins? Didn’t stop them from trying to get a better balance, IMHO, than the Twins of pitching, hitting, and defense.
Got a few errands to run, will come back later to read everyone’s responses. Thanks all!
Oops, that smiley face ended up in the wrong place…was supposed to be after my tongue in cheek at Howard about getting a cut for saving him from writing much today!!
Liriano could have easily gotten 15 starts in if they would have called him up a week or two ago when it was clear that he deserved to be called up…. if the Twins lose this division by more than 10 games, I’m giving full blame to Smith for being such a stubborn ass. Twins did the same thing with Santana all those years ago and people were saying the same thing then. I say, if you are a team that is clearly not going to spend the money to make a move that is going to help your team, you have NO EXCUSE for not taking full advantage or even taking a small gamble on the talent within your own organization. PLEASE get him up here! If he blows it, we’ll all have egg on our face but we can finally shut up about it!
Well, I didn’t get very far catching up with all your responses. The wind was completely knocked out of my sails when my namesake crashed into the wall. To add insult to injury ESPN doesn’t even make him the #1 Web Gem tonight…they cut the video too soon and didn’t even catch his toss to whoever it was (Delmon? Span?). What a heads-up presence of mind while writhing in pain. On top of that was of course the pitiful performance from Livo. In retrospect maybe the worst thing the team could have done so far this season is score him all those runs every other start or so. Without all those runs he’d probably be about 2-18 or something. His W-L record is just a joke. And now I see another Strib article saying the Twins are pondering a Liriano move!!! PONDER — WHAT’S TO PONDER????? Tonight gave me a new idea. Move Livo to the pen. Beginning in the first inning have him start pitching out in the pen. By the time he has to come in for relief he’ll be in his inning 4-6 Cy Young form. In the meantime give his starting spot to Franchise.
If Howard starts a new topic tonight I’ll get back to everybody in the new blog…sorry if it doesn’t make sense within the later topic. I already spotted what looks like the best response from y’all that gave me a new and different insight into the Twins power outage.
